MEOW! Chaos on Guard & The Airline Merger Madness

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Tom (0:30): Engine spooled. Checklist complete. Welcome to the Black Box Aviation podcast, where the stories behind the headlines get unpacked by the people who actually fly the damn plane. Hosted by Tom, a former military pilot turned airline and cargo, and Mike, a lifelong civilian flyer now flying left seat as an airline captain. It's aviation news, insider insight, and real pilot perspective.

Unknown Speaker (0:54): Strap in.

Speaker 3 (0:57): Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. We got a great show rundown for you today, and it's gonna be awesome. We are gonna talk about cats on the radios. Mike, you've cats on the radios before?

Mike (1:05): I've heard cats on the radios for years.

Unknown Speaker (1:07): Meow meow meow meow. There was a

Mike (1:10): movie that came out. I don't know. And it's been ever since that movie.

Unknown Speaker (1:14): That's what it was based off of the cats on the radio.

Unknown Speaker (1:16): I think so. We'll talk about it.

Speaker 3 (1:18): Hey. We're gonna talk about war to red uncertainty. The jet fuel crisis kinda goes into that. A quick hit on the mergers acquisitions. We got a email shout out today for Crosswind Landing cross actually, Crosswind Takeoffs and the difference between landings, so we got that.

Speaker 3 (1:31): We'll hit bombs on a plane. They have bombs away, bombs on a plane, and, well, if we get hit, my trip back from Florida, and we had another major award to discuss. Let's jump right into it, Mike. What is going on with the feline issue that's happening in the airways? Because it to me, everybody say, you know, you you guys are kid, you hear, oh, it's raining cats and dogs.

Unknown Speaker (1:49): Well, my mom texted me, and she goes, you heard about these cats on the radios? Everybody's saying meow. I'm like, yeah. I've heard that for

Unknown Speaker (1:59): The years?

Unknown Speaker (1:59): Twenty something years now.

Mike (2:01): Yeah. It's ever since When when did Super Troopers come out? Because I'm pretty sure that's when it started, right? How many meows could he get while he was talking, you know, trying to give a speeding ticket or something? And it just kind of carried over from that, I think.

Mike (2:14): But yeah, it's crazy annoying, and I don't even know, I've never witnessed, I've never done it, and I've never witnessed another pilot doing it. So I don't know if it's pilots on the radio, if it's some guy in his basement with a radio that just tunes into the emergency frequency and does it, but it's crazy annoying.

Speaker 3 (2:31): That that's what the kind of where it comes from. So it go it comes over the guard frequency. So when we're flying the airplanes, you have your regular air traffic control frequency up, and some radios will automatically dub. The the military radios would, like, automatically tune guard on the backside, but for our radios in in the most of the jets, you have a guard frequency on your secondary radio, and you listen to them both at the same time. For the most part, nobody ever talks on the guard frequency unless there's an emergency or, like, they're checking the radios.

Speaker 3 (2:59): But then you have the childhood antics of people going, do your best meow, mate. Let let's hear one. Meow. Meow.

Unknown Speaker (3:13): You guys, you need to be professional

Unknown Speaker (3:15): pilot. Meow. Meow. Meow.

Unknown Speaker (3:25): This is why you're still playing RJ.

Unknown Speaker (3:28): And then it starts happening. And usually, it could be in the it's mostly in the nighttime that I hear it. I don't Somebody like will repeat it.

Mike (3:40): Quiet night all the time as a cargo guy. It's it's yeah. It's just random times. I can't even say there's a time where it happens more frequently than other times.

Speaker 3 (3:48): I don't know. Yeah. So and this made national news, and something that it cracked me up because my mom was like, I can't believe this is happening. So 04/12/2026 incident where the pilots made a meow and bark noises over the emergency radio frequency at Ronald Reagan, DCA National Airport, and air traffic control scolded the pilots. Now when air traffic tool, like, scolds you, like, it can go a couple different ways.

Speaker 3 (4:08): Like, other people can get in on and be like, and that's what else happens, Mike. When somebody does a meow on the guard frequency, sometimes you'll hear You're on guard.

Unknown Speaker (4:15): Yeah. Our guard.

Unknown Speaker (4:16): Grow up. Grow up. And that just And just And that makes it worse.

Mike (4:20): That totally makes it worse. It's just one more person on the radio that doesn't need to be on the radio. The person that did it, it's not like they're not gonna listen to you anyways. It is super unprofessional. I wish they could catch these guys and discipline them, but I don't even know how you can they're we're gonna investigate.

Unknown Speaker (4:35): Investigate what? How do you even know who was talking on the radio?

Unknown Speaker (4:39): I don't know. You don't know who who did that call. Right. And it's totally random, and it's just it's like a total immature reaction. Now, and most of the guys you'll fly with will be like, that's the regional pilots doing that.

Unknown Speaker (4:50): Like Mike said, I flew in the regionals for a long time.

Mike (4:53): I flew at three regionals, never saw anybody do it.

Speaker 3 (4:56): Not one guy. Never heard anybody do it. Never in a million years. I know some not the military guys either, because like, somebody would report you. They would love to report you for that.

Unknown Speaker (5:05): Your buddy sitting next to you would turn you right in. You'd get I just a blue falcon right there.

Mike (5:10): And that's what I'm saying. Maybe it's not even a pilot. It's some guy in his basement with a with a handheld radio tuned to the frequency and just starts yakking. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (5:18): It's possible. So yeah. I agree. And so key details of this incident, the sounds were two unidentified pilots were heard making meow and woof noises. I've never heard woof on the radio.

Unknown Speaker (5:27): Have you heard that?

Mike (5:28): Maybe like a barking, maybe, but definitely not as common as a meow.

Speaker 3 (5:32): Yeah. The meow is like the standard thing and I I don't get it. If you do meow noises, go ahead and send us an email or text in. Do it from somebody else's phone and don't leave your name, please. Do not do that because I don't wanna know who you are.

Mike (5:46): Or have you ever seen anybody do it? I've never seen anybody No, do never. Flying commercially for twenty years, I've never seen anybody do it. So I don't Yeah.

Speaker 3 (5:53): And we all hold what's called the FCC radio telephone operator's permit. So we are technically, like, you have to have a license to talk on the airway. Same as if you got your, like, ham radio. Like Mike's saying, if some guy's in his basement doing it, he's got a radio telephone operator permit. And we all have to show them when we, like, show all our, you know, documents to another pilot or something, or when you get an interview or something like that, you have to show your documents and everything like that.

Speaker 3 (6:20): So there is, like, a rule with it, so you could potentially face, like, a federal fine or something. I'm sure.

Mike (6:27): And it's not just talked about how annoying it is, but we've when we talked about it with the LaGuardia crash and like radio being busy on the radio and multiple people talking at the same time and how you can't listen, this is the emergency frequency. So if someone's talking on it pointlessly, it's wasting an airwave that we can't listen, we can't hear if someone really is having an emergency or if someone really does need to get in contact with someone. And it's not just emergencies, it's maybe you flew out of the range of air traffic control and you missed a frequency change or they forgot to give it to you. They're gonna call you on this frequency to give you the new frequency that you need and if people are whining and complaining, you're on guard, meow, all this childish bullcrap, you can't get that call. Then what do you do when you start hearing it, Tom?

Mike (7:13): Do you do? Certainly Probably turn volume down.

Unknown Speaker (7:15): Turn it down, yeah. So so now you now you can't and then

Mike (7:18): you're just like, I'll turn it back up in a few minutes, maybe it'll be done. But maybe in that few minutes, you missed something that you should have got, you know, like, it becomes a it's a major problem.

Speaker 3 (7:28): Yeah. You're totally right. You'll hear them call, like, you know, whatever, you know, American twenty three forty five on guard switch this frequency. So you'll hear that, like, because if you like Mike's saying, if you get outside of the sector, you've gone too far, maybe you didn't hear the radio call and that then they they kinda clue you into that, but

Mike (7:49): And it's not just and it's not just for the airlines, it's everyone. You said the military uses it to back up. Yeah. Generally, aviation uses it. So if someone has an engine failure in their little Cessna, they're gonna land in a field somewhere, they need to be able to tell people on guard where that field is so they know where to go find them.

Mike (8:04): I mean, it's a big deal. And, you know, it's not just, you know, you start hearing the chatter on on your second radio from guard, the pointless chatter, and now you can't listen, you can't you have a hard time hearing it'd be like trying to listen to two radio stations at the same time in the car. It's not easy, so you'd have to turn one down and one up, but now you're gonna miss calls on your primary frequency as well because of the chatter on on two. It's it's just it's not it's a tor it's just not fun. It's it's annoying.

Speaker 3 (8:33): Yeah. It's like listening to Lady Gaga on the on the Sirius and then Grace is singing Katy Perry next to me in my face. Your head starts going blow up, so yeah, it's too much. Too much. It is.

Mike (8:45): So, yeah, and you know, they said they're gonna look out, they're gonna try to investigate, and like I said, I don't know how you can do that. And that's people know they can say what they want on there, and unless you start talking in the same voice on another freak, they're not gonna know who did it. Nope. Totally not. Yep.

Mike (9:01): I

Speaker 3 (9:04): don't know what the solution is, Mike. I don't know. But this is if it is in the news right now and it's like, this is nothing new. So I don't know. This makes it worse or better.

Unknown Speaker (9:15): It's never happened on my flight, dad. I can tell you that. I would that

Speaker 3 (9:17): would I can agree with I'll attest to that. I've never seen a guy do it. And if he did it, I'd be like and sometimes I've thought, like, is it starts like meowing or whatever? Was like, I hope that guy doesn't do it that's sitting next to me because I'm gonna freak out. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (9:31): It's not gonna go well. I haven't seen it I haven't seen it happen, and I've never heard anybody really talk about it too. And it's definitely not just the regional guys. I don't I don't know. So anyways, if if you got something to say about the cats on the radio or the meowing or whatever it is, go ahead and send us in text at the hotline.

Speaker 3 (9:49): (203) 699-6792. Don't leave your name or identify anything with it, I guess. Hey, Mike. Still in the news. We get the war in Iran.

Unknown Speaker (9:59): Last week, the Strait Of Hormuz is open. Everyone's like, yeah. Let's have a party. We can go through the Strait Of Hormuz. Oil prices are falling, and then it's closed again.

Speaker 3 (10:08): And then there's we're boarding planes, and Iran is boarding ships and Iran is shooting at other tankers. I mean, what the f is going on? Like, I I don't know anymore. I don't know what to say.

Mike (10:20): Nobody knows, and I I I don't even know how to comment on it just because I I mean, it's definitely newsworthy. We should talk about it. You know, Spirit's talking about maybe shutting the doors this week, and apparently, there's a rumor that they reached out to the Trump administration for a government bailout because of the fuel prices.

Unknown Speaker (10:36): No kidding. Yeah. You did you not see that? No. Didn't see that part

Mike (10:40): of Yeah. There's a rumor they reached out to Trump administration for a government bailout because of fuel prices because they're gonna have to liquidate by the end of the week, people were saying. But then at the same time, they had to pay a TSA fine. I'm like, well, you're gonna get a government bailout, you think they would just lift your fine. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (10:53): That would help. So I don't, you know A guy

Speaker 3 (10:56): said to me yeah, somebody said to me last week that they knew somebody was traveling to Florida on Spirit, and they're like, are they gonna get back? I don't know man,

Mike (11:04): like If liquidate, your ticket obviously is null and void because the they're not gonna have it they're not gonna have they're gonna cancel the flight, so it's not going, and then you would like to think you're gonna get a refund, but that money is gonna go to a bankruptcy court. So if you do get a bank a refund, it's gonna be years later, and it's you probably aren't, because it's gonna go to the credit the money the creditors are gonna get their money first, right? The people that they owe the the, you know, the money to the planes and all that, they're getting paid first before, you know, Sally Sue who just bought her nine dollar ticket, you know, to Omaha, you know, she's not getting her money back, you know.

Unknown Speaker (11:37): Sally Sue's gonna be upset, she wants to go see grandma.

Unknown Speaker (11:39): So but but

Unknown Speaker (11:40): what I'm saying

Mike (11:40): is like, so yeah, that that's if if if that's not a nail in their coffin, the fuel prices, the people that aren't gonna be buying tickets because they're scared about getting their money, that's that's that, and then now they're running out of flight crews because they've, you know, people have gone to other places. It's not looking good.

Speaker 3 (11:55): Then this is a quote from Ed Bastian, who's the CEO of Delta. He said, any flying that we're doing that's on the margin, maybe not producing the yields we like, is likely gonna be reconsidered. He also said they are in they're gonna have an extra $2,500,000,000 in fuel cost this quarter, and he said, this is gonna be a test for the industry. Look, Mike, do you remember the stories that people would talk about? Remember ATA?

Unknown Speaker (12:17): ATA was I don't even know what it stands for. Do you remember? It was like

Mike (12:20): Air Transport? Air Tran and Air Trans World Airways. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (12:25): Yeah. I think they ceased operations in the early two thousands, but and they ended up doing like charters at the end, but when they I remember flying with guys at Compass that worked there, and when they were like, ATA was global. So, like, do you fly in, like, Frankfurt? Something like that, and It was American Trans Air. American Trans Air?

Speaker 3 (12:45): They ceased operations, and they got those guys, like, were in woke up in the morning in, like, Frankfurt and they went downstairs and the hotel's like, hey, your company called and, like, they're not paying for another night at hotel. They were like, well, how am I gonna go home? They're like, I don't know. They got nothing. They just left those guys out there.

Unknown Speaker (13:04): They had to find their own way home. The flight attendants were out there.

Mike (13:07): Yeah. I mean, that's and that's the brutal reality of it. And if the Spirit were to shut the doors, that would probably happen to them. Now granted, they'll all probably be domestic or Caribbean at worst, but other airlines are pretty good about leaving, you know, giving these guys because once you you shut the doors, you're gonna lose your privileges to fly on the flight deck of another airline, right? Because you're not gonna be in the system anymore.

Mike (13:27): But other airlines have been good in the past historically about giving these guys seats to get them home. So but yeah, it's still I mean, even if you're stuck for a day or two, it's talk about the stress and not knowing and then not knowing what your bank account's gonna look like in six weeks.

Speaker 3 (13:41): And I and I said to guy to people too, like, for passengers that were stuck out, like, you know, other airlines might just offer you, like, a reciprocal ticket or something to to get your business, you know, if that's why to show good faith to another customer that's stranded to be like, hey, man, we helped you out. Remember when you're stranded and we got you a ticket home or something like that? Like, I think that's possible too that other companies would help out to try to show some goodwill to get other business for sure. But it's that scary stuff. European Union is saying they have six weeks of jet fuel supply left, so that's not good.

Speaker 3 (14:15): British Airways and Aer Lingus have canceled flights to The United States. Air Canada, don't if you saw this, just canceled all their flights from Kennedy to Toronto and Montreal, and they're citing jet fuel fuel prices. So there's definitely causals.

Mike (14:27): You know, in the last quarterly report by most of airlines, they had done their future budget with gas around that $2.50 mark, that $2 2 to $3 range kind of thing. And now it's what's pushing $5 a gallon. So I mean, you're talking double what they planned and possibly still increasing. And it is up and down. Friday, the oil, like you said, it tanked and then we got the news over the weekend of, like you said, the straits open, the straits closed.

Mike (14:51): Okay. We're gonna we're gonna take this freighter and we're gonna, you know, it's gonna try to break break the blockade and we're gonna take its power away, you know, and we're gonna board it with marines, you know. I mean, there's so much the news is changing by the minute and it's and and the markets reflect it.

Speaker 3 (15:06): That's all you need is volatility in the oil market with jet fuel. It's a good time.

Unknown Speaker (15:10): Yeah. Great to come to be an options trader if you know what you're Yeah. A volatility.

Unknown Speaker (15:15): Do know anybody that does options, Mike?

Unknown Speaker (15:17): I do a little bit. Do a little. I dabble a little bit. But I stay away from the oil I've stayed away from the oil options because that's a but some of but it's volatility in the entire market, so there's definitely opportunity there.

Speaker 3 (15:27): Yeah. And I think that's why you see the market, like, constantly spiking back up because guys are like, we can we can make something of this, and it's kind of changed where back in the day, if there was, you know, trouble in The Middle East, and oil went up, and everybody lost their shirt, and that's just how it was, and that's not how everything is reacting right now, and I don't think a lot of economists can really explain it. I think what you you said might

Mike (15:48): be like, what we heard on the news yesterday, you would expect the market to just be completely down today. The S and P as we speak is down it's flat. It's down point o 9%, which makes no sense compared to what we just, like, I don't know. Art of the deal.

Unknown Speaker (16:01): I'm economist. I'm really bad

Unknown Speaker (16:03): at Art of art of the deal, you know.

Unknown Speaker (16:05): Art of the deal. Well, until the deal works out. Mike, you're you're more in touch with the the options. Maybe that could be a side thing. But if

Mike (16:12): you've noticed through the Trump administration, and this is no pro or anti Trump, usually the negative news, he'll he'll announce it Friday or Saturday after the market closes, and then by Monday, it rebounds, so there's no downturn in the market despite the good news and bad news waves, you know. It's just so do what that means.

Unknown Speaker (16:29): On Friday, you'll be smiling, Mike. And on Monday, you're back to crying.

Unknown Speaker (16:34): Now you gotta flip

Unknown Speaker (16:34): that around.

Mike (16:35): You gotta flip that around because the market doesn't change over the weekend. News on the weekend. Good news by the end of the week.

Speaker 3 (16:41): Look. I'm I'm the president. I decide how it is. Don't tell me how to do it. That's how it goes.

Speaker 3 (16:47): Okay. Hey, speaking of more volatility, mergers and acquisitions. This came up again last week. It's I don't get it. United says that they propose propose a merger with American.

Unknown Speaker (17:01): Is not I can't imagine.

Unknown Speaker (17:03): That's completely fantastical. Right? Mean, you're in Disneyland.

Mike (17:07): Scott Kirby is just poking the dog. Right? He's poking the bear, like, he's just let's see what I can let's see what, you know, I can shake and what comes out, you know.

Speaker 3 (17:15): Yeah. I think Kirby was on the a small world ride in Disney World this weekend. Well, been obvious.

Mike (17:22): He has it out for American. Right? Like, he's not he's trying to attack American everywhere, and and this was right before Americans, like, think they were reporting or something or they were making an announcement or no, right before their 100 year anniversary, I think. He's trying to steal their news. He's trying to pop their bubble.

Unknown Speaker (17:37): My god. That's funny.

Mike (17:39): Yeah. So I think there's some of that going on, but there's definitely merger talk in the news behind this curtain, and and you just don't know what what's gonna shake out. Could be by the time we finish this show, there's a news report.

Speaker 3 (17:51): Something new, right? A United and American merger would create a mega airline. They would control 42% of all market share.

Mike (17:58): They didn't allow how do you not I don't care that it's a new president. How do you shoot down JetBlue and Spirit, and then allow United and American? But you can't justify that at all.

Speaker 3 (18:11): And and I've seen a lot of people talking about this is just a diversion tactic, you know, United is really looking at JetBlue to to make a merger that we talked about last week. Again, Kennedy and New York City is the largest and most profitable in The United States for airlines. That's just a fact. That's that's where the money's at. David Neelman, founder of JetBlue, former JetBlue CEO.

Speaker 3 (18:33): He founded Morris Air, Azul, and Breeze. He was at teleconference Wednesday discussing improbabilities of the UA of the United JetBlue merger. Again, he this guy knows a lot of stuff. Why he's talking like that? I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (18:46): Is he trying to say stuff Can they they release it?

Mike (18:49): They released it like it was this top secret thing because he was doing a, you know, know, a what you say, like a little roadshow with the pilots, so he would have like, you could pilots could call in and they just had like a meeting and a lot of airlines do that stuff and but he's gotta know he's being videoed and that's gonna get released, so I think it's scripted whether he's speaking the truth or not, you know, and he can say he's got friends at JetBlue all he wants. At the end of the day, he was forced out at JetBlue and he's gotta have a little bit of hurt feelings, you know. And again, you know, he does have connections, he knows the industry, but he's been very successful at starting airlines. So far, ability to run an airline has not been proven to be fantastic. You know, he ran JetBlue and was into bankruptcy.

Mike (19:35): If it wasn't for Lufthansa in 2007, JetBlue would have been done twenty years ago.

Unknown Speaker (19:40): Yeah, that's true.

Mike (19:41): And then he ran Azul into bankruptcy, you know, but he started two, you know, airlines that have been very successful, So we'll see what happens with him at Breeze. So far, they're been okay despite the rocky, I don't know, scenarios that are that's out of their control, you know.

Speaker 3 (19:59): They don't make any money, so that's another problem.

Mike (20:01): They turned profit last time, which was surprising to me, but that was before fuel went up, you know, but then I mean, the fact that you can start an airline basically during COVID and then you go straight into a a Middle East war and you're still around making some sort of a profit, that's that's pretty good. I'll give him I'll tip the cap to that. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (20:19): I'd agree. Yep. So I don't I don't know what he was up to, but you're right, Mike. He obviously knows what he's saying. He doesn't say things just to say him, like, something he says it's on purpose.

Unknown Speaker (20:29): This is

Unknown Speaker (20:29): just me and you spitballing. We'd have no idea. Like

Unknown Speaker (20:32): Yeah. What'd be the last thing you said, he's not gonna drive he's not gonna tell, like, a secret. He knew what he was saying, like you're saying.

Unknown Speaker (20:38): He knows that he's being taped. Are you kidding me? Like Of course. Come on.

Unknown Speaker (20:41): That thing went around like wildfire. How I got it. I'm like, I'm who's sending me this? Like Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (20:47): You sent it to me. Yeah. And then by the time I got on and then I got on the Internet, it was all over every forum. Like, oh, JetBlue. And every bloggers run with it.

Mike (20:54): JetBlue's founder says they're gonna be bankrupt by the end of the year. It's possible, but who knows?

Speaker 3 (21:00): Like, don't if you noticed, but these, these dopey guys that go on social media and make videos, they need content. They need something to talk about.

Mike (21:07): So Well, JetBlue this week or no Friday after I think it was right after the market closed, So I don't know how the JetBlue stock's responding today, but they mortgaged some of the airplanes for like $500,000,000. I'm gonna say like twenty year yeah. To pull out some cash, which you'll see how that plays out.

Unknown Speaker (21:26): That's I mean, that's a shell game of an airline, like you constantly looking for cash.

Mike (21:30): And guys are like, they're they're mortgaging their planes. It's the same thing, like if you refinance your house to build a new dock, you know, I mean, like there's no it's it's it's not like it's it could be a dire thing with them, I don't know, but it maybe they're maybe they have a plan for when if Spirit goes out of bank, if Spirit closes the door this week now, JetBlue's got 500,000,000 cash to jump on it, you know, I don't know. I don't know their plan.

Speaker 3 (21:53): And people say like, oh, why why didn't they just stop flying? That should that they should save money, but they have to keep the revenue stream going, and they constantly are making money by those flights. So it's just a razor thin margin in how they figure everything out.

Mike (22:05): It's if you start canceling flights, you're just gonna push away your customer base to another airline that's not gonna come back. Well, I put I had this summer vacation. You're coming right into the brink of summer. This is like the peak travel season for these leisure airlines like JetBlue and Spirit and Southwest and Frontier. This is where they make their money.

Mike (22:20): So how you can start canceling flights when you lose money the rest of the year? You're hoping to make enough money over the summertime to carry you through the rest of the year. So you can't cancel flights over the summer.

Speaker 3 (22:29): Nope. You gotta push through. Like I said, that's what they're doing. They're raising that cash to get to push through, and hopefully, keep going in the right direction. Hey.

Speaker 3 (22:38): Let's let's switch gears here. Let's talk about some flying stuff, Mike. This is an email shout out. Andrew in Virginia. Thanks for the email.

Speaker 3 (22:44): We appreciate that. Keep those emails coming. It's theblackbox01@yahoo.com. Go ahead and hit us up with any questions you got. Anything you want us to talk This came in, I think we're talking about crosswind landings or something.

Speaker 3 (22:57): And he said most people talk about crosswind landings, and we've talked about that before. I've talked about the MD 11 and its kind of funky characteristics in a crosswind. And that has a lot to do with, like, the size of the rudder, the FCG. There's a lot of weird stuff going on. But this guy, Andrew, has got a question about crosswinds during takeoff.

Speaker 3 (23:18): And I you think if it's such a big deal in landing, wouldn't it be such a big deal taking off? Is it, Mike?

Mike (23:27): I mean, it can be, but is it normally? I would say no. I think the crosswinds can definitely be more treacherous in a landing than in a takeoff, but you definitely have to have control of the airplane. You are gonna put the ailerons into the wind on a takeoff as well, but I fly a fly by wire airplane, so you it's very little aileron input, otherwise the spoilers come up, which would totally throw off your takeoff performance. So there's very little, at least on the Airbus, to do.

Mike (23:55): You're talking maybe a third of your side stick and not like a, you know, if you're flying a Cessna, you could be, like, all the way over and to it's whatever it takes to maintain centerline without you know, because you're using your feet. I don't know.

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Speaker 3 (24:39): Yeah. So you use your feet. The the airplane's nose will weather vane into the wind. So the the airplane's gonna go into the wind even on the takeoff roll. When you're flying a bigger airplane or jet or something, you have the nose tiller control.

Speaker 3 (24:52): So you're you're steering pretty much the center line with the tiller, but at some point, you're gonna gain as the airflow comes over the rudder, you're gonna gain more authority with the rudder. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (24:59): You're not using the rudder on you're not using the tiller on takeoff at all.

Speaker 3 (25:03): Yeah. You'd let go of the tiller as you start as you start getting getting speed and you get authority with the with the rudder. And then you know, don't use a

Mike (25:12): tiller at all on takeoff.

Speaker 3 (25:15): Well, I mean, you kinda hold it and then you start going, like, let go of it. That's I guess that's my point. I mean, you're not gonna hold it the tiller into the the wind and steer the airplane. No. I I'm with you.

Speaker 3 (25:25): But like you're saying, if you if you if you get a gusty situation in the wind, you know, the your wings gonna rise up as well. So you gotta hold a little bit of aileron into that side. And then like Mike saying too, like, if you get too much aileron and that comes up into the slipstream, now you got drag on the airplane. And the last thing you wanna do is put drag on the airplane because you're trying to take off. Right?

Speaker 3 (25:46): You don't want that. So I remember Mike on the Airbus, you would put like a slightly forward stick and then you kind of blend it in the and then you'd see like the pipper would be it's like blue and it just kinda like rolls over just a little bit into where you want the wind, you know, into the wind as you go.

Mike (26:02): Yeah. And you just do it's very little on that because if you go much more than the spoilers come up because it fly by wire. So it's just you're just telling the computer what to do, basically. So it is very little and there's no feel, so you can't feel like, okay, it hit this, now I know my spoilers are up, I can bring it back. You don't even really know, so it's very little.

Speaker 3 (26:23): Yeah. And a big jet like the c five, you would have to do that a little bit, and then once the jet came off the ground, you definitely wanna keep that correction in as you start coming off, so, you know, the wind will just start blowing you off course, depending upon how strong it is as well.

Mike (26:38): Yeah. And you mentioned on Airbus, like, keeping the stick forward, and that's that's normal. Usually, it's a half stick forward, and then about 100 knots or so, you go back to neutral, and that's just to counterbalance the CG of where the engines are and things. But if it's a super gusty crosswind or you have a tailwind or something, you'll go more stick forward. You'll still pull at neutral, you know, by a 100 knots or so.

Mike (26:58): That's yeah. To keep that what you're saying about the lift and everything.

Unknown Speaker (27:02): Yeah. I don't know if I've ever noticed, like, over correcting a crosswind on takeoff, like, where you feel that drag. Have you ever felt that before? I I can't say I have.

Mike (27:10): No. Because if anything, I underdo it, you know, and it's, you know, that would be a fault of mine, I guess, but

Speaker 3 (27:15): Yeah. I guess you're right. And maybe that's a fear of making the over correction and having the drag, it's probably better to under correct it, because you can see, like, based on the center line, like, how effective you're

Mike (27:26): And then once you get off the ground, you're just flying. Yeah. So it doesn't matter that you're pointed, you know, and you're flying off, you know, kinda sideways. You see it all the time. But you don't feel that, you know.

Speaker 3 (27:39): And the takeoff roll's pretty quick as far as like the aircraft accelerating and everything get kinda gets better as you get more airflow over the surfaces and the control, like everything starts you kinda hit this weird limbo part, so you have that full control authority as the air kinda comes over the surfaces and you get out of that limbo zone like Mike said.

Mike (27:57): Yeah. So you're accelerating as opposed to decelerating on a landing. So I think there's some differences there. The things on landing, I've seen guys get in trouble for is if they land with their heels on the ground because they're afraid of hitting the brakes, like on the rudders. You know, a lot times you'll fly with your heels on the ground so you can work the rudders without hitting the toe brakes.

Mike (28:16): But they'll land with their heels on the ground, and then when they try to get on the brakes, they kinda release the rudder pressure, and that's when you get that gusty crosswind, and that can that can get screw squirrely on a landing too. So it's it's that foot control and putting your foot in a proper placement on the rudder pedals. It's very important.

Speaker 3 (28:33): Yeah. And like Mike says, you on the top of the rudder pedal is your toe brake. So you push the brake brakes. The brakes turn on by pushing the toe your toes forward, but your heels push forward and that's what controls the rudder. And like Mike said, if you're fighting a crosswind, you know, and it's it's challenging, your foot's kinda like all over, you know, and then you get on the ground and you start wrestling with the airplane.

Unknown Speaker (28:56): And if you you can tap the toe brake, like, that's possible. And you're gonna need to hit the brakes too to slow the

Unknown Speaker (29:01): airplane down.

Speaker 3 (29:01): And you gotta keep the rudder input in too. So that's kinda like deceleration. So there is like a a transition period of, you know, the Crossman landing into the rollout. It's very similar to like the same input as the takeoff The

Mike (29:15): JetBlue two twenty that went off the runway in Boston last year. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Remember that. That's what happened to them on landing with the gusty Crossman.

Mike (29:22): I'm pretty sure they they their foot placement wasn't ideal.

Speaker 3 (29:26): They just yeah. And that can happen, like, you're not Oh, I remember

Mike (29:29): the exact details of the report that came out. But, yeah. That's that was the the summary of it.

Speaker 3 (29:36): Where like, where do you put your feet as a captain, like, as as if the especially if it's, like, challenging. Say it's super gusty and maybe the FO is not doing the best job controlling it, but, you know, you you're not gonna take the controls from, but, like, how do you kinda guard for that?

Mike (29:51): I mean, I put where I would have them if I was flying. I just don't put the pressure on it. If I feel him doing pressure, I just kinda let it let him work, you know, I don't he's I don't I would be embarrassed if he felt me on controls, you

Unknown Speaker (30:04): know. Big time.

Mike (30:04): Yeah. I'm right there, but I don't put any pressure. Not just not even when I was an FO, I would do that. I would want my FO to be guarding the control. I mean, what if I, right in the flare, have a heart massive heart attack, you know?

Mike (30:16): He needs to be ready to be there. He can't just be looking out the window, like, you know. I mean, it's kind of an important moment of flight, and that's why that we should always have two pilots on the flight deck.

Speaker 3 (30:27): I love how you dropped that in there. I love it. That was perfect. Yeah. And this I totally I like I remember flying a compass with the captain was landing and, dude, we landed in Detroit, I think it was, and the airplane was all over the place.

Speaker 3 (30:42): And he was flying, and I was like, like, I almost took the airplane, because I was like, this is messed up, and he's a captain, you know, and like, I'm I'm still like the military guy, like, learning the civilian way,

Mike (30:52): but I tell guys all the time in the train department, that guy is in the left seat because he got hired before you, not because he's better than you. There's a lot of great captains out there, there's a lot of weak captains out there, and it doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't make them unsafe, but you can't just take it for granted that, Oh, that captain is perfect. I remember when I was a flight student, and I was working on my private pilot's license, instrument rating and all this stuff. I thought my instructor knew everything. I looked at them like a flying god or something.

Mike (31:20): As soon as I became an instructor, I realized none of them knew jack crap, like, we're all clue like, it's kinda figuring it out together, you know? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I mean? Like, what you do, you just operate as safely as you can with the procedures written by your company and you just figure it out.

Speaker 3 (31:38): I was doing this is not that that that long ago. One of my last flights in the MD 11, we were going from Newark to, I think, like, Oakland or something like that, and it was a gusty day in Newark, but I mean, they're they're taking off on the fours. It wasn't that bad, and it was my leg. And the captain goes, well, because of the gust factor, I think I'm gonna do this take off, and then I'll I'll hand you the airplane as soon as we get off the ground. And I was like, really, dude?

Speaker 3 (32:04): It's not that bad, but captain Captain Krusty, he wanted it so he got it. He retired actually.

Mike (32:12): I've I've never done that. Honestly, there's been times where I thought maybe I should, but I've never done it. I, you know, I've never actually had to take the controls.

Speaker 3 (32:22): So I can't remember taking the controls. You know, with students, I would when I was

Unknown Speaker (32:27): flying Oh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (32:28): That's different. The one.

Mike (32:29): Yeah. Definitely different with students.

Speaker 3 (32:31): But I would be frightened. I would be very scared, and then I would take the control, but not in the airliner.

Unknown Speaker (32:38): I never

Unknown Speaker (32:38): had to.

Unknown Speaker (32:38): You see weaker I've stories of guys doing it, but I've never had to do it. So I can't But say it doesn't

Speaker 3 (32:44): you like, because you're an instructor, and you know, you you still are, and you're an instructor in the Airbus, like, you know kind of, like, what that envelope is, especially for maybe another pilot that's not as strong. But still, like you said, like, they made they made the cut, so, like, they have a skill or they have skills and, you know, like you just be ready in case something And it and it could be

Mike (33:08): a very good pilot that just hasn't flown in a while. They were on vacation or they were on reserve and wasn't getting used and now the first time they get called in three months, it's a nor'easter, you know. I mean, it's that's usually how it works out anyways. That's why you're getting called off reserve because of the bad weather. So now you're you're someone that doesn't fly.

Mike (33:25): You sit there and watch prices right all day long and now you're landing in this 50 knot wind. So, you know So

Speaker 3 (33:32): I I landed at MD 11 at Boston on two seven pretty early on in

Unknown Speaker (33:38): Two seven? Short too.

Speaker 3 (33:40): It was short. It was gusty. The jet was a handful, man, and my heart rate must have been, like, 200. I put that thing on the ground, and and I was waiting for the other guy to be like, go around and but nope. He let me do it.

Unknown Speaker (33:52): I I had to wear asshole it right down on the ground, but that was a doozy. And then two seven that I mean, I didn't know it was gonna be that gusty that day. I was just psyched that we're going back to Boston. I haven't been to Boston since I was at the other company, so it was cool. Anyways, that's kinda the difference.

Unknown Speaker (34:09): Send us any questions about the Crosswind take off.

Mike (34:12): We could go into it more in-depth. And I mean, like, how how is it different with a general aviation? How is a Crosswind different, you know, landing a Cessna compared to an Airbus? You know, I mean, it's completely different, because they can crab it all the way down where you're not gonna crab a jet, you know.

Speaker 3 (34:26): Yeah. Because you you know, you're flying a high wing one seventy two or one fifty two, even flying like a Piper or something with low wing.

Mike (34:31): Same thing like if you're high on the glide slope in a in a in a Cessna, you can slip that thing right down and get right back on glide path. You cannot do that in a jet.

Speaker 3 (34:39): Nope. That's swept wing. You see that at end 11, man. That's it. That's curtains.

Unknown Speaker (34:44): Curtains.

Mike (34:44): Yeah. If you start sweeping that thing, you'll probably stall inside.

Speaker 3 (34:49): But, know, and and you're not I mean, people have way too much experience when they get to that point, but translating what we do into that, the basics of of that, yeah, it's totally different of how you learn that. And you should learn that school skill, like, learned how to slip and and do all that stuff in the t 34, like, could do that. If you were high, you could you could slip it down and get back on.

Mike (35:10): I mean, could you could slip a Cessna down almost like a helicopter. I mean, you can get them things down quick.

Unknown Speaker (35:16): God. Switch with the bandwidth, Mike. Just come right down.

Mike (35:19): Just but you're coming in sideways. Yeah. You do that in a jet and you're you're done. You know, you can't. You know, that's a transition for people from the general aviation and flight instructing world into the jet aircraft too, and you can learn the aerodynamics in ground school when you know that you can't do it, but then what do you do when your first gusty crosswind is you go to the law of primacy and these are what your feet and rudder skills are.

Mike (35:44): You just can't you can't do usually don't use any rudder on landing till what, the last 50 feet or so. You just kinda straighten the nose out while you land, you know? So anyways

Unknown Speaker (35:53): Yeah. I can't wait to get I'm so pumped. I can't wait to get back into the training center and fly an airplane again, like Yeah,

Unknown Speaker (35:58): it's been a while.

Speaker 3 (35:59): I'm it's gonna be awesome. I don't know what the triple seven's gonna hold, like, everything I've heard is just like, it's it's awesome. It's a great airplane. And nobody talks any crazy talk about it. Not the way they talk about the m b 11.

Speaker 3 (36:09): Like, I'd be sweating before I even went into the brief in the m b 11, but nobody talks about that with the triple. I think it's gonna be

Mike (36:16): You should bring some good show material with it too. Although I

Unknown Speaker (36:21): I agree. You're talking about, like, get back to, like, flying basics and stuff. A lot of it's because I haven't I haven't done it for that long, you know. I wanna get back in there and and get some topics going and

Mike (36:31): So you've you've discovered one thing one thing since the UPS crash that you're not ready for retirement.

Speaker 3 (36:36): That's true. No. I'm not ready for retirement. I've got a lot more a lot more flying to do, a lot more stories to tell, and a lot more show show content and material to bring back here to the black box. So I got it.

Speaker 3 (36:48): I'll be back. Alright, man. Let's move on. I wanna just hit this topic quick. This was in the news.

Speaker 3 (36:55): I don't if you saw this. There was a a United flight from Chicago to New York and they end up diverting to Pittsburgh. This was Saturday over a mid air security concern. The flight was operating United two zero nine two departed from Chicago, Wisconsin. It was going LaGuardia, they divert to Pittsburgh.

Speaker 3 (37:11): It's a seven three max 800, and they got a 159 passengers, six crew. And they start hearing like, a beeping noise, and they can't figure out what it is. And they think Like on the flight deck? It's in it's in the cabin, and they can't figure it out. And it sounds like like something in a bag maybe, and they can't find it.

Speaker 3 (37:32): Maybe it's in the underneath the floorboards. They can't locate where this beeping noise is coming from, and they start freaking out. And they decide that it's potentially a bomb.

Unknown Speaker (37:43): Center, United twenty ninety two. Hey. We got an issue up here. We're getting a sequential beeping suspected item on board. We're gonna have to start treating this as a potential

Unknown Speaker (38:01): bomb.

Unknown Speaker (38:02): We're gonna need to go ahead and start the version of stuff, get things settled. Right now, our leading us towards treating it as a potential bomb.

Speaker 3 (38:11): And the the pilots say over air traffic control, like, we've got a problem, and we think there could be a bomb on board. He literally says bomb on the airways. Now just like the what was the movie with the Fockers or whatever?

Unknown Speaker (38:24): Yeah. Bomb ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba That one?

Unknown Speaker (38:26): Sir, you can't say bomb on an airplane. I'll say it all day. What's wrong with saying bomb on an airplane? You can't say bomb on an airplane.

Unknown Speaker (38:33): Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb.

Speaker 3 (38:35): Yeah. Exactly. And he says it over the radio. And dude, you say bomb for real, like, from a pilot, like, people in the back goofing around or whatever, like, that's nothing. A pilot says that?

Speaker 3 (38:45): A united pilot says that on the on the radio? Like, dude, you're gonna light light it up. Like, it's it's game on. So they option to go to Pittsburgh and they land at Pittsburgh. They do a emergency ground evacuation.

Speaker 3 (38:59): Everybody off the airplane, all security teams come in, they do bomb sniffing dogs, they they sweep the whole jet, they check all the bags. There's nothing. They can't figure it out. And that's that's where they kinda leave off. They re rebook everybody and get everybody on the way, but they don't know what happened.

Speaker 3 (39:16): I I think that's the weirdest thing. Like, what what would you do? Would you I mean, from the from the cockpit perspective, the flight attendants telling you there's a beeping. It's

Mike (39:24): really tough. Yeah. I would some something between communication with the flight attendants and the company, and then you just you gotta on the side of count safety, you know. I mean, if they can't identify the beeping, and they've looked through people's bags, and everyone else's you got the customers and the passengers involved and and no one's claiming it, no one's you can't identify where it's coming from, it would be unsettling. I mean, what do

Speaker 3 (39:46): you do if it's if it's like your your kitchen cooking timer that you like put in there and like you you you don't wanna fess up to it. I I mean, I I don't know. Like, it could have been that. It could have been somebody's, like, alarm clock in their thing, but they were worried enough about it that But I would think it was in a bike.

Mike (40:02): If it was in a bag, you could at least, you know, like, start moving the bag, oh, it's coming from this bag, you know? But if they can't even identify that, then

Unknown Speaker (40:10): What if it's underneath the floor though, like, it's in the cargo hold? Suppose if an alarm was loud enough Oh, yeah, that's true.

Mike (40:16): It could've been someone's bag underneath, I didn't think about that.

Unknown Speaker (40:19): Yeah. And then you'd like, I we don't even know where it's coming from. And that seems like And

Mike (40:22): the person whose bag it is probably doesn't even know, like, you know, you probably didn't even think about it.

Speaker 3 (40:28): So I yeah. And like, I'd if like, I don't know, chef chef Emeril's on the jet and it's his cooking timer, he's probably not gonna If you

Mike (40:36): were a terrorist with a bomb, would you have a beeping sound on it loud enough to identify it? That's super

Unknown Speaker (40:44): funny, dude. I didn't even think about that.

Mike (40:46): But when you, like, have a, like it sounds like a Looney Tunes bomb, you know, like, tick tick tick tick tick. Like, I don't think the real, like

Unknown Speaker (40:55): The coyote sitting there, like, looking up at the ceiling, like, I don't know.

Mike (41:06): But but to to back to your original question, like, the flight deck, I can't, like, compare my Looting Tunes child memories to, like, reality and be, like, oh, this is not how you decipher a bomb, like, I

Unknown Speaker (41:18): I remember that. I'll just be ducky.

Unknown Speaker (41:21): Just just cut the yellow, we're good, you know, like, I mean, it doesn't

Speaker 3 (41:25): work that way. No, it doesn't and I would totally default to the flight attendants and be like, if they're getting spooked enough to think that something we're gonna come back there to find look at it, like Yeah.

Mike (41:35): There could be a diversion to open the door and someone's, you know, and now you have a hijacking, like it it's the crew in the back, the flight attendants, any jump seaters, any non revs, any disabled people. Maybe you have a law enforcement officer back there that's off duty, know. These are your eyes and ears back there that are gonna give you the communication that you need to make the best decision you can at the time, and that's all you can do. And if it's the right decision, bravo. If it's, you know, if it's wrong and you air it on the side of safety, I just don't see how you can find fault.

Speaker 3 (42:07): Yeah. I agree. And like, would be so lucky if you had like a, you know, a military EOD person or like you said, a law enforcement EOD, like, that would be so so weird. And there's a lot

Mike (42:17): of times you have law enforcement. Now they might not be trained in bombs, right? Like, you might just have like a highway patrol officer, but you have a lot of high quality people back there that are just going on vacation with their family. So it you definitely, you know, you could get them involved and and, you know, could take their opinion for what it's worth, you know? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (42:38): And you kinda talk they'd be a better expert at me anyways. If I went back there, I'd be like, I don't know what that is. Right. I don't know either. Right?

Speaker 3 (42:45): Even if you had it, if they said, look at this device, like, what do we do? Like, you're saying, they cut the red red or blue wire, like, we don't know. Hopefully, somebody else knows. We kinda talked about this in the pre show bike, and there are procedures that we are trained as as air crew to handle if you found a device that was, you know, a suspected bomb or an actual bomb. We won't go into that, but there is training that is effective with that.

Unknown Speaker (43:11): But in this case, I don't even think they had that, like, the noise was coming from somewhere.

Mike (43:15): Well, if they never got their hands on the material, they wouldn't even, you know, you wouldn't be able to do anything, so

Unknown Speaker (43:20): To do it. I always thought that was super uncomfortable in training when when they would go over that, and I don't even know how effective it would be if that was

Mike (43:28): It's a desperation play.

Unknown Speaker (43:30): At least there's something, though. I mean, I guess you gotta do something. You can just sit there and look at it if you actually knew it.

Unknown Speaker (43:35): So You gotta fight you gotta fight all you can lose a wing. You're fighting all the way to the ground. You never just come up, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:40): I agree. So that's what they did. They landed in Pittsburgh. They did an evac, and there was nothing. So I guess that's a good thing.

Unknown Speaker (43:48): I'm not gonna say it's bad. Awesome.

Unknown Speaker (43:50): Yeah. It was great. So

Speaker 3 (43:52): good good on them, and I'm glad that worked out for that. Dude, I'll tell you quick. I was in Tampa and we would see my parents who were coming back to Hartford, And luckily, my mom made lunch and we were like, get a I didn't like stress too bad about how long. It's long. It's like two hour it's like an hour and a half drive from their house to Tampa.

Speaker 3 (44:14): But as a regular traveler, like, I was like, oh, well, we did it yesterday. It was like hour and a half. I never took the traffic again. We hop in the car and I gotta stop twice for gas to get to Tampa. And Grace pulls up the the traffic and it's like two over two hours.

Unknown Speaker (44:28): Tampa can be miserable traffic, man.

Speaker 3 (44:31): Yeah. It was it was awful. And then we're you know, Grace falls asleep, so I drive most of the way, like, white knuckle, like, freaking out. And there's nothing I could do. Like, it was all traffic.

Speaker 3 (44:41): It was not like I could go fast and make up time. It was just you were you were stuck. Like, that's how it was. But I did have her pull up the FlightAware, and that was a huge tool to see that the jet wasn't gonna land until, like, probably, with the same time they were gonna board it. So I knew I had a little bit of extra time.

Speaker 3 (44:59): Then we got lucky because in Tampa, you have to take a tram from the rental car from to the terminal, and then the terminal is a tram to the gates where that's where the TSA is, and there was nobody there. So we got right on, and we made it. So that was good. Dude, the big news too this week is we wanna give a GoodPods a shout out. It's goodpods.com.

Speaker 3 (45:23): You can find all your favorite podcasts there, including the Black Box Aviation podcast, where guess what, Mike?

Unknown Speaker (45:28): We got ranked.

Speaker 3 (45:30): Another major award. So we thank GoodPods for that. We'll pop our badge on there, so you guys can check it out. And go to goodpods.com and check out access to everything. I know lower the bar's on there, and you can check that out as well.

Speaker 3 (45:44): If you can't if you wanna find anything that we got, it's wwwtheblackboxaviationpodcast.com. That's a one stop shop. You got everything there. You get the emails. You got the hotline numbers, and you'll you'll figure it all out.

Speaker 3 (45:56): So go ahead and reach out to us. Get in touch with us. Send us an email, and we will give you a shout out. We'll talk about a topic that you wanna hear about because we like to talk about anything. Mike, you have any other content you wanna drop into this conversation?

Unknown Speaker (46:08): No, man. We're ready. We're good.

Unknown Speaker (46:10): Alright, dude. Well, another good show. We appreciate it and we'll see you next time. Stay tuned.

Unknown Speaker (46:13): You've been listening to the Black Box Aviation Podcast. Real pilots, real stories, and aviation news the way it's actually talked about in the cockpit. If you like what you heard, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow so you don't miss an episode. Until next time. Keep the blue sign up, and we'll see you at altitude.