B777 Training, FAA Medical Realities, Wind Shear Departures, and R-ATP Hiring Hurdles

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Tom (0:30): Engine spooled. Checklist complete. Welcome to the Black Box Aviation podcast, where the stories behind the headlines get unpacked by the people who actually fly the damn plane. Hosted by Tom, a former military pilot turned airline and cargo, and Mike, a lifelong civilian flyer now flying left seat as an airline captain. It's aviation news, insider insight, and real pilot perspective.

Unknown Speaker (0:55): Strap in.

Mike (0:57): Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Black Box Aviation podcast. I'm with your host, Tom, joined by Mike. Mike, what's happening?

Unknown Speaker (1:03): Tom, what's going on, man? How are

Mike (1:04): you doing? Mike, you're in Florida, and I'm in Mississippi. Training has begun for me. This is our makeshift studio here in Mississippi. I'm at a desk at my buddy John's house.

Mike (1:13): We're gonna talk about my crash pad living. You're no stranger to that, Mike. You've you've crashed on couches and I've trying to

Unknown Speaker (1:22): forget a lot about it, but, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (1:23): Clearing out the hotels.

Unknown Speaker (1:24): I slept on bing bag chairs.

Unknown Speaker (1:27): I'll pick your brain about that too as we get into it. So that's gonna be my story from the road. I think you said you were gonna tell a quick story from the road about some weather, which I think is pretty cool.

Unknown Speaker (1:36): Taking money out of commerce.

Mike (1:38): I think that you were like, I got nothing. Then you told me that. Was like, I think that's something. So we got a quick lead in from potential big discussion that may be coming up in future episodes about long term disability. We'll talk about that a little bit.

Mike (1:51): I got an email from Scooby. I talked about Scooby a couple weeks ago. I actually talked to him about coming on the show. He's not quite there yet, but we'll tell you his story. There's a Wall Street Journal article that was out about Spirit Airlines, and then a quick follow-up to that, the YouTube thing that you sent me about those guys that do the repo things for Spirit.

Unknown Speaker (2:09): Yeah, nomadic aviation. Yeah, I

Mike (2:11): think that's worth a quick discussion. There were a couple f eighteens that got a little too close for comfort in the Mountain Home Air Show. Something interesting happened in 2003 at the Mountain Home Air Show. That's in Idaho. I don't know if you remember that, Mike, but we will talk about that as well.

Mike (2:26): And then I think that's all I got. So let's jump into it right away. Let me tell you my story from the road. So I launch off from training, and this is this is interesting how it starts off because I got all my gear and everything, and I hop we hop in the car, and we've been dreading it, like, all day, and we did a bunch of stuff. Went to my niece's graduation that day in Worcester, Mass, and then we go home and hop in the car, take me to the airport.

Mike (2:52): And as we're driving, we go past the exit to, like, where the terminals are in Bradley. And Nicole's in the in the the first officer seat in her car, and she's like, where are you going? I'm like, going to the airport. She's like, what's over there? I'm like, no.

Mike (3:07): There's no not the passenger terminal. We gotta go to the we gotta go to, like, the cargo terminal that takes me down there. And she's like, oh, right. And I'm like, I've got so much gear. I've got my bags.

Mike (3:18): I mean, my my roller board, Mike, probably weighs like fifty, sixty pounds, and then I got my swim bag, I got my gym bag, I got my regular backpack, my fake How are allowed to how much are

Unknown Speaker (3:28): you allowed to take on?

Unknown Speaker (3:29): Nobody says. I think, you know, every now and again when you go into the jump seat room and you get a jump seat, they'll put there'll be a scale out there and they'll be like, you gotta get in your scale. And they're like, oh, well, you can't have this or that or blah blah blah. And it it goes away, like, one one time. And if, you know, if you're not subject to that, then whatever.

Mike (3:44): But even then, like, there's no rule that says you can't do this or you can't do that. And I got and I got my golf clubs too. So I get and I gotta carry all this stuff in, and and Nicole's like, let me help you to the the door. I'm like, nope. I need to learn how to do this because I know that night I'm gonna be dragging the that stuff out to the jet.

Mike (4:01): It's an Airbus 300 going to Memphis, and then I'm gonna have to drag it into the ops or get it onto the bus and then get it into the ops, and it's gotta all go through the security on the exit because you gotta make sure that you don't have anything that you took from the outstations. And then I gotta drag it onto the next bus, and that takes me to the parking lot where I'm gonna get Jovan's car because Jay's let me borrow his car for two weeks before he gets here. And I've never been to that parking lot. It's a brand new parking lot. So I I don't even know where his car is.

Mike (4:28): I gotta find his car. He sent me videos of, like, where his car is and, like, how to get to it. And lucky he did. Like, he's like, get off at this bus stop. It's E 2.

Mike (4:35): He's like, you you gotta tell the guy. I tell the guy when I got on bus, I'm like, no.

Unknown Speaker (4:39): Excuse me, sir. I need to go to E 2.

Unknown Speaker (4:41): And he's like, what? And I'm like, I've never been there before. And this is I'm like falling off the bus. My my roller board is top heavy, so it keeps leaning over and it's like bonk on the ground, and then I gotta run back and get it, and every time I lean over, my water bottle comes out of my backpack. I'm a disaster.

Unknown Speaker (4:57): I've been in this company for five years and it looks like it's my first day, you know. So it was quite quite an ordeal, and of course, I'm walking around the golf club, so everybody I go past goes, are you going to work? Where are you going? Why are you bringing your golf clubs? You know, and I'm like, oh my god.

Mike (5:13): So I I had I had a tolerance build up because I expected some of this tomfoolery to occur, But and then I'm in I'm finally get all my gear into ops, and now I gotta get it all through the the security thing. And some guy that goes to me, he goes, only a moron would bring his golf clubs through here. And I was like, what? And I turn around and look, and there's a there's another guy and he is a pilot. He's in his uniform and I see behind him, he's pulling his travel bag with his golf clubs.

Mike (5:40): So I was like, okay. Well, that guy can he's got a legit joke. I I can laugh at that. So by the time I get my stuff out of there and get to the get in the car now I gotta drive to the house, which is in Mississippi. So I got I found his car, loaded up and everything.

Mike (5:56): Jay's car is great, man. He's got this little Kia, but it's like a four body trunk. Like, the trunk is huge. I don't know where that leads to, but the mafia would be very proud of his car. At least there's a lot of bodies you can put back in there.

Mike (6:09): So I just I drive down to Mississippi, and it's about twenty five minute drive. But as I'm going, like the it turns into a one lane road on the highway because they're doing paving and like painting the lines. And the exit, the only exit I know to get off in Mississippi to come to the house is is closed. You can't get off. So I go past the exit, I'm like, I've never been this far before.

Mike (6:31): I don't know what I'm doing. So it ends up dropping me off, like, in the center of town. I just backtrack, and it's real easy and everything. But at the same time, I'm walking into this house. Like, I haven't been here for five years since I was in training.

Mike (6:42): I opened the door and luckily the passcode worked because I was like, I I I think it's gonna but if I don't if the passcode isn't working in the house, I'm probably gonna sleep in the car in the driveway till I can talk to my buddy John and and, know, get it set up or whatever, but it works. I get in a house and it's, like, 89 degrees in here because nobody's been here for, like, two weeks, so it's super hot. The air conditioning's off, you know. So I'm like, oh, great. By the time I fall asleep, it's, like, three in the morning central time, which is like four at home.

Mike (7:10): So it was quite a deal. But like use it, Mike, you know, when you go to a crash pad, especially for the first time, like, I don't have any supplies. Like, I brought some, like, glad bags and sandwich bags and stuff, but I have no food. Like, I don't have any snacks. I gotta go the next day to, like, the store.

Mike (7:26): I don't have, like, the right

Unknown Speaker (7:29): mean, I don't makes it that makes that's huge.

Mike (7:32): Oh, yeah. Because think about the place you've been, like, Kew Gardens or, like, even when you're in, you know, Minneapolis or something like that. And but you're you're, like, semi setting up your life, and then you think about it too, like, you're essentially like a bachelor again because I'm by myself. Like, I'm not buying stuff for there's no one here either. The other guys that are here are our triple seven guys that are never What do eat

Unknown Speaker (7:53): rotisserie chicken and Captain Crunch?

Mike (7:56): Yeah. I mean, that's what your diet is gonna like, that's protein and basic carbs, Mike. You I mean, listen. That's you got it figured out. Like, that if you were gonna eat something, that's the right thing to do.

Mike (8:09): And I gotta buy, like, a Brita pitcher for, like, the water and stuff and, you know, I don't know, man. And then I'm, like, packing a sandwich to go to work because I gotta sit in the classroom all day and listen to systems talk. So, anyways, so that's my story from the road. That's how I got here into the crash pad and start training everything. We started training today.

Mike (8:28): So, you know, there's a lot of that too. The other side of that is I haven't been at work for six months, so there's other goofy stuff that creeps in. Like, I passport redone. I've got a China visa that has to get redone. And it's it's quite a deal.

Mike (8:42): So for us to squeeze this show in is something else, man. So

Unknown Speaker (8:45): No. I'm happy with doing it because I'm leaving town tomorrow morning. I'm leaving town early tomorrow morning. So,

Mike (8:50): yeah. Yeah. And you go on vacation. So but, anyways, so that's my story from the road. And and our makeshift studio, you see Wilson hanging out there.

Mike (8:58): So and if some look at somebody else might come in because I'm at a desk in, the family or living room. So if somebody comes in, that's an you know, they're gonna be part of the show unwillingly or unnoticeably. So we'll notice them. But that's just how it goes. I don't think I'll have this opportunity again.

Mike (9:13): So I'm glad that no one's here as well. So we'll figure it out. But what do you got, Mike? I thought your story was pretty good about your weather departure. We kind talked about that last week.

Unknown Speaker (9:24): Departing out. Yeah, we did. So this went right in line. We were taxing out in Fort Myers, and we were behind a Delta flight. And they were like, low level wind share advisories are in effect.

Unknown Speaker (9:33): They just came out with a special aid or whatever. Delta was like, we got to pull over and think about it or whatever. And I could see the storm coming from the from the Southwest moving our way. And I'm like, now we're good. Tell them we're good.

Unknown Speaker (9:44): And we'll we'll go down. We'll be number one. And as we're taxiing out, we're pointing at the weather. So we talked about the predictive weather or the predictive radar, predictive wind shear. And it started going off because I was pointed the opposite way.

Unknown Speaker (9:56): So I was like, well, if we wouldn't be taking off if we were going that way. But then I look over my shoulder and it's clear blue in a million going east out of Fort Myers. So I'm like, yeah, tell them we'll line up and wait. We wanna take a look at the radar. Pull out there.

Unknown Speaker (10:08): No wind shear. Nothing. I mean, it's clear blue out there. We took off and about the time we took off, it started raining. Like, it was just coming over the field like right as we were leaving.

Unknown Speaker (10:18): I think we're the last departure out of there for a few hours. There were tornadoes. There were all kinds of stuff. Southwest tried to land after us and had to go around. But they were going through the area that I painted the predictive wind shear with, so I couldn't believe they did that.

Unknown Speaker (10:32): Yeah. And I Delta had to go back to the gate because they didn't take their departure. And I got, like, the one the last ship out of there, man.

Unknown Speaker (10:39): Have you ever brought your magic to Walt Disney World like, hey, we came to play? Did you tip your tiara to a creole princess or get goofy officially? Step up like a boss and save the day? Or see what life's like under the tree of life? Did you?

Unknown Speaker (10:57): If you could, would you? When we come through, it's true magic because we came to play. Bring the magic at Walt Disney World Resort.

Mike (11:09): Back to you, the Pathfinder again. But this is the classic scenario that we talked about last week that did you could you see Virga coming from the clouds?

Unknown Speaker (11:18): Yeah. But like I said, it was off to the Southwest coming our direction, but, like, it was good where, you know, we were pointed towards the blue. Now, you know, if we had had like an engine failure and had to land or something, I knew leaving Fort Myers, we could go over to Punta Gorda, we cut across to Fort Lauderdale, we go up to Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota. There's so many options there. I knew we weren't coming back there, you know?

Unknown Speaker (11:41): Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (11:41): So I don't know if you remember, we talked about Delta 191. That was the accident at Dallas Fort Worth, the L ten eleven. We talked about it a little bit, but the post

Unknown Speaker (11:49): Don't get me wrong. If they had said microburst alert, then we would not have taken off. Of course. They're like low level wind share advisory and then they were like at the at the arrival end. I'm like, well, we're not arriving.

Unknown Speaker (12:01): I was like, how's that departure? And they're like, oh, it's fine. So I'm like, let's go.

Mike (12:05): Well, and you're not being dopey. Like, you're not like, oh, I'm just gonna take this takeoff clearance to get out of here because I gotta get the $5 cheeseburger at the restaurant. Like, you you're looking at the wind you're looking at everything. You're taking all your stuff into consideration, you know, and that's what you you're being timed for.

Unknown Speaker (12:19): We just talked about was pretty pretty uncanny, you know? Yeah. So that's great.

Mike (12:24): But how should I say the the post accident pictures from Fort Worth, you can see that tails there, the smoking, and then in the distance you can see like the black clouds with the verga coming out of it, like as storm had, like, gone over them, you know, and moved on, which is which is scary. So, yeah, I'm glad you had that story from the road. I thought that was pretty good. This is kind of heavier stuff to talk about, but it's a couple, say, dark things, but I was talking to another jump seater on the flight from Hartford to Memphis, and he told me about a medical event that he had encountered, which is something scary. I'm not gonna talk specifically about it because I don't I don't wanna talk about anything, you know, with his his own, you know, health stuff that's not he hasn't told me that it's okay to talk about it.

Mike (13:15): Same with one one of my other buddies who's been dealing with a a pretty long term illness, but I think that people forget, or I think they know that we have to have like additional, you know, screening because we have to go every six months to the FAA approved doctor, which is your aviation medical evaluator. They're called the AME. And that guy and there's some fear involved with that because if that guy doesn't give you your medical, that affects your ability to come in and go to work. And if you weren't anxious enough about your own health to start with, or if you were, if you're worried about something, and then you go to see this guy and you're worried about him taking away your potential livelihood, it builds up this continued fear. And there's definitely an adversarial relationship, I would say, between the AME and the pilots.

Mike (14:06): One of my buddies just went to a different AME, and that's something that you talk about too is, like, Mike, if you and I were even even being in Florida, I'd be like, hey, dude. What's your AME like? Because you're gonna give me the scoop to be like, yes, guys. Easy. I had one a guy, they took his license away.

Mike (14:21): He I saw him eat a donut off my, like, medical folder, and then he looked me over and was like, You're good, and then he did nothing. And then he gave me my ticket. I gave him $200 and then he gave me my medical, and I

Unknown Speaker (14:32): There was a guy down here in Florida, and it's probably been five years ago now, that a bunch of people that got medicals from him got letters saying they had X amount of time to go get a new one because they revoked everything that that guy was doing.

Mike (14:45): Yeah, some guys are shady like that.

Unknown Speaker (14:48): But I didn't go to him just because, you know, it probably had the stress that you had to have on that to have, you know, X amount of days to get a new medical or you're going to your medical is going be invalid is it's very stressful.

Mike (15:00): Yeah, I knew another guy. He went to another AME they never seen before, and next thing you know, he's in a hospital gown, and he's getting, like, a full workup. So that's the full spectrum of what you can see, and you don't wanna go to that guy. You want a known quantity. And my I had a great AME.

Mike (15:17): He died. He was 90. He just he died.

Unknown Speaker (15:20): He was 90. Yeah. What

Unknown Speaker (15:21): he is.

Unknown Speaker (15:21): That's

Unknown Speaker (15:21): that's a wrap. You know? He died in the office. His his daughter I've seen this, I think. His yeah.

Mike (15:27): His daughter's he was running the general practice. He was seeing patients. He was a great guy. He was definitely 90, like, but he that's what he did. He went to work.

Mike (15:37): So, you know, I think the other thing that two people don't know, they they've heard us talk about, like, oh, everywhere, pilot people are like, what if pilot has a heart attack? Like, we get an EKG every year. You're gonna get one. And that looks for anomalies and things like that. But if you do have an anomaly, you could find yourself at the cardiologist.

Mike (15:54): And if the worst thing and there's other things that happen too, like say they look at your medications, you have to have approved medication list, but the worst case being that they don't give you your medical. And then what happens next? So this is a big discussion because the guy I was talking to said he uses this part of the unions called AMAS, and I think anybody can buy that if you're not unionized, you can pay for that service. If your company maybe doesn't subscribe to it or your your union doesn't, have you ever heard of AMAS, Mike? I've heard of

Unknown Speaker (16:26): AMAS, but I know there's an Aero Medical, like, phone number to call with with ALPA, and that's who I would probably call first, and maybe that's what they get you connected with, I don't really know.

Mike (16:36): I I think that's what it is, and there's experts there that know everything as far as, like, what steps you need to take, and it could be anything from like, hey, you got diagnosed with cancer, or you just had a heart attack, like how do you get the steps together to do your get your medical back? And it could be that you took Sudafed. They might not issue your medical because you took Sudafed because there's things that are negative in that medication, and then and then you have to go through a process to figure it out. And those guys know it, and they'll help you do that. Now, if you say you can't get your medical for a certain amount of time, you start running into things like long term disability, and that's where I think people get scared and and not know what to do, and it's rightfully so.

Mike (17:18): So I think this is a discussion that probably we need to bring up more. I'm I'm gonna talk to do some more research. I would love if my buddy will agree to it, come on and tell his story. Like, I think that just really explains the whole process a lot better.

Unknown Speaker (17:31): Yeah. Thankfully, neither one of us have had to go through that. But as you get older Just so many hoops to jump through is from what I've been able to tell, you know, and then, you know, just getting your disability, getting you're getting paid so that you can pay the bills at home and your medical bills. And then when you get through that, going through the hoops with the FAA to get your medical back so that you can go back to work. You know, it's it's a it's a process.

Unknown Speaker (17:56): So

Mike (17:57): And like as we get older, like things just come up. Sure. Things that you can't you can't control, like, you know, and you can't say, oh, that won't happen to me. Like, I I run marathons. The guy I was talking to, he did run marathons.

Mike (18:09): And we if he can come out and tell a story, you'd be like, what? Say, what? So you just don't you don't know. When health comes down like that, you don't know, and it can happen to you, and if it does, like,

Unknown Speaker (18:21): how do

Mike (18:23): So I I don't know how cute into people are with that, but our health is a big deal, which is amazing because sometimes you see guys that live lifestyles on the road that are completely unhealthy and

Unknown Speaker (18:33): you're I see like some guys and I do wonder how they get their medical. I'm like, man,

Unknown Speaker (18:37): are they doing?

Unknown Speaker (18:37): I can't even hardly get a uniform that fits.

Mike (18:39): My buddy, I'll tell you, probably didn't tell a story, but he sent this guy at the time we had that doctor that he would just sign anything off, you know, because that's what he did, like you're saying, like and it caught up to him because he took his license away. But he so this guy, he was having problems with his blood pressure, so my buddy tells him, go go to this guy. Like, he's just gonna sign you off. And he goes in there, and I don't know I don't know who this guy is. I've never seen him.

Mike (19:08): This this guy, you know, what he looked like or whatever, but doctor looks him up and down and goes he goes, you don't look so good. I think you've got some blood pressure issues. He goes, he called his nurse in, and they put a blood pressure cuff on him, and it was, like, through the roof. It's like, yeah. I'm not giving you a medical.

Unknown Speaker (19:26): So he's, like, the one guy he turned down? He's the one guy, Mike, in, like, ten years, and my buddy sent him to him. So yeah, you just don't know what's gonna happen in the doctors. But if you have a known condition, like you shouldn't go in there trying to game it, like that's the problem in the first place, you know?

Unknown Speaker (19:46): Yeah, yeah.

Mike (19:49): Yeah, lots of medical stories and that's stuff that leads into us fearing the doctor.

Unknown Speaker (19:54): But for those looking for an Amy, you want a good one that, you know, they're fair, but you know, that you can email if there's an issue like, hey, like I've got this going on and they'll give you an accurate response. Okay, this is what you need to do. So you can talk to, you know, Aero Medical at Alpha and you can talk to your AME and kind of figure out what you're really gonna do, you know. You wanna you wanna you wanna stay up on your you don't wanna sweep your problems under the rug because, yeah, you might get your medical, but you may end up in a serious health condition. Like, you wanna take care of stuff and a good AME will help you navigate that path without the threat of, you know, getting you in a deep hole with the FAA.

Unknown Speaker (20:33): So, you know, be careful.

Mike (20:37): There's something said with that too, Mike. Like, if you just ignore something until, like, it gets you, you know, because

Unknown Speaker (20:41): And I get it. I get why guys do that, you know, like, I can't really talk about this, you know, issue, you know, this funny feeling I have, you know. I don't want to lose my medical. Mean, it's nothing, you know, it's nothing. Then you drop dead in your sleep or something, you know.

Unknown Speaker (20:54): Damn.

Mike (20:55): Hopefully you have a primary care, which is totally different, because I have a primary care. Like, I see a primary care and some other doctors that, you know, the AME is separate, but we still have to go see that guy. But I bet you there's some guys that don't see anybody. They only see the aeromedical doctor.

Unknown Speaker (21:08): Yeah. Mean, that's not just pilots. That's guys in general. Know?

Unknown Speaker (21:12): That's true too. That's what's happening.

Unknown Speaker (21:15): Men's health and things like that. I've been kinda lax with some of that, but just go to your primary. Your name is John Doe, you know.

Mike (21:22): Anyway, Cash. So Cut the back door. Alright. Let's shift off the medical stuff. And again, we'll bring that up as as more things come on.

Mike (21:33): I'll work on getting my buddy to come on and tell the story. He seemed pretty open about it, but again, I'm not gonna jump into it unless

Unknown Speaker (21:39): No. For sure. That's yeah.

Mike (21:44): Let's talk about the email from Scooby. So we brought up Scooby last week, I think, and it and you liked his call sign. Now I talked to him, and he was a little bit skittish about coming on the show. So but what I think he would be a great asset to the program is that he is he's a military guy and he's flown the p three and the p eight, so he's got a seven three type rating. He's military trained, and he has let's see.

Mike (22:14): He's got seven hundred and sixty one total time hours with 675 multi engine turbine, and he's got the the restricted ATP. So he doesn't have a full ATP because he doesn't have the hours, and he's he's got a non flying job right now, and his his wife is in the military. Now he doesn't have a problem working, you know, CFI, doing certified flight instructions, but or doing like 91, one thirty five, or flying with the regionals. So, you know, he's open to those things, and this is where it gets weird because he applies to Republic, and he gets an interview, and they turn him down. Now, like, why I I just don't see how that goes down.

Mike (23:07): Like, how how would why would they interview him if they don't if they're not taking guys that don't and they told him it's because of the hours, and and he doesn't have any currency. He's got, like, four hours and, like, a $1.72, you know, so he could buy his way until, like, getting currency, but I don't know where that leaves you or what those guys are looking for to to to give him the the magic pass or whatever. Do you know what the restriction are, Mike, right now on that? I I mean,

Unknown Speaker (23:33): I don't but I definitely you definitely need to be current, I think. I don't know the restricted ATP stuff because I we don't deal with that too much. And that's all changed since I was at the regional. I don't really know. But I would definitely I wouldn't it is weird that they would interview him if they already knew his situation and then turn him down for that reason.

Unknown Speaker (23:57): You would think they don't wanna waste their own time. I would definitely recommend getting current, you you hate to just go blow a bunch of money, but it probably wouldn't take long.

Mike (24:08): It says, allows pilots to fly as first officers, the US airlines part one twenty one to reduce flight hours. It requires fifteen hundred hours at age 23, but then it can reduce as age 21 to 23 with seven hundred fifty hours to twelve hundred fifty depending upon their training path. Military pilots can qualify at seven hundred and fifty hours total times. Restricted ATV

Unknown Speaker (24:33): I think his bigger biggest problem is the lack of currency that he has been flying. You know, you combine the two, you might get away with one of those issues, but to have both of them.

Mike (24:43): But what are they scared about? That he's gonna get in there and fail out of training and waste their money? He's not gonna pass OE and start building hours? You think this guy would be a lock in? Because if they get him five hundred hours and then he's got a thousand plus or whatever, he gets a full ATP or 1,500, and then they move him to the left seat, he might not leave for, five years.

Unknown Speaker (25:03): I have no idea.

Unknown Speaker (25:05): That's what I don't get. Mean, that's

Unknown Speaker (25:07): what I talked to. In general. I mean, they they turn people down every day and you may not may not know why, you know.

Mike (25:12): It's republic interviewing. That's that's got a gold star, you know. I I I that's what concerns me. And I looked it up. I looked at SkyWest.

Mike (25:20): They were saying the same thing, but Endeavor didn't. Endeavor was like, we don't care, you know. There's no hours posted with Endeavor. So I think restricted a p t ATP is probably like what Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (25:31): But like I said, you you you gotta be current. I don't know anybody that gets hired without currency ever, you know. How do you go from not flying to just getting a job, like, you know. Don't think it's the currency.

Mike (25:43): Even but why would the what's the currency got to do? What's the big the big mover on that that you just don't talked about it before

Unknown Speaker (25:51): where if we take a month off, how awkward it is. How could you imagine someone's taking a couple years off?

Unknown Speaker (25:55): Put him in the sim and a couple ILS laters, he's good to go.

Unknown Speaker (26:03): I mean, you may have a 100 guys sitting in there and 99 of them have currency and one doesn't. I mean, it's an easy it's an easy my thing is why would they interview him? I don't know. But I've never heard of people getting hired without currency and low time. I just I'd never.

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Mike (26:49): Even with, like, a seven three type, I mean, he's got heavy

Unknown Speaker (26:51): Who cares?

Unknown Speaker (26:52): Heavy time. You could or he's four four

Unknown Speaker (26:54): engine turboprop. You have a seven three type. How many hours have you logged on it?

Mike (26:58): It doesn't mean I've never flown the airplane. Never.

Unknown Speaker (27:00): That's what I'm saying. So who cares that he's got a seven three type?

Unknown Speaker (27:03): He but he's he's flown the airplane.

Unknown Speaker (27:05): But when was his last flight?

Unknown Speaker (27:06): I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (27:07): You put on here on your notes 2020. June ago.

Unknown Speaker (27:12): Okay. Yeah. You're right. It's been a while.

Unknown Speaker (27:14): I mean, you I I appreciate your standing up.

Unknown Speaker (27:17): He's got forty hours in eighteen months. I don't know. So I I

Unknown Speaker (27:21): him just answered your own question.

Unknown Speaker (27:23): Well, if I worked at the if I was Republic, I'd be like, I want this guy because I I can I know I can lock him up into maybe being in the left seat and not be in going to What if he has

Unknown Speaker (27:32): a hard landing and and I mean, there's been you can't I mean, you just can't?

Mike (27:38): If he had a hard landing, Mike, with no experience, he'd be that would be normal. Box normal.

Unknown Speaker (27:43): Not hasn't that's yeah. That's probably why Endeavor doesn't care. Right. Do you see

Unknown Speaker (27:48): there was a sinkhole in LaGuardia today?

Unknown Speaker (27:50): No. It

Mike (27:52): shut down the runway for, like, I don't know, a long time. My buddy said Delta buddy said their phones are going crazy.

Unknown Speaker (27:58): Dang.

Mike (27:59): Yeah. I I didn't look at let me look that up quick. But yeah. So I talked to Scooby about him coming on the show and

Unknown Speaker (28:07): I think if he goes gets, you know, fifty hours multi, he'll be fine. But, mean, I I don't know why I'm saying that. I just you gotta have some currency, you know. Couple hours on the $1.72 ain't gonna do it. Not when you haven't flown in six years.

Unknown Speaker (28:23): Yeah. I think that's probably the limiting factor. And he said but

Unknown Speaker (28:27): like, why would they even bring I'm surprised they even gave him an interview. Cause I saw the stuff. I get that. I understand that argument. Why waste your time?

Unknown Speaker (28:34): Why waste his time if you know it's not gonna happen?

Mike (28:37): When I was getting my seven three type at higher power, this is after the military before I went to the regional. Actually, met someone there that did an aviation, did an interview prep with me, and then she's like, know someone at Compass. That's how I got the interview at Compass because the EV the prep lady, the interview prep lady, she knew someone there and they called me. But anyways, while I was there, the Virgin America Virgin America still existed before they merged with Alaska. They had a they were renting SIM time in the three twenty.

Mike (29:07): They had a three twenty SIM in the base there at higher power. And I went over and talked to those guys because I was like, I I didn't have a job. And those guys were like, you how much time do you have? And I was like, oh, I got about twenty five hundred hours. I had twenty five hundred hours with like, you know, thirteen, fourteen hundred hours of

Unknown Speaker (29:25): Is it for a military conversion though? Like, can you take military flight time and then it turns into, like, for airline stuff?

Mike (29:32): Doesn't bump your hours that much. It's like point three per, like, takeoff and departure. So the more, like, departure lines you have, you know, lines in your logbook, the more hours that you would add to it. But if you're only adding like a point three hour per flight Yeah. Didn't know what

Unknown Speaker (29:48): it was.

Mike (29:49): It it I mean, it definitely like could raise you above the waterline, but it's not gonna, like, put you in, an, you know, an astronaut category or something

Unknown Speaker (29:58): like gonna go from being a five hundred pilot hour five hundred pilot hour hour pilot to, a two thousand hour pilot.

Unknown Speaker (30:06): No. There's just not enough time in there to bump it like that.

Unknown Speaker (30:09): I didn't

Mike (30:09): It does boost you, but especially if, like, you're looking for a thousand PIC or something like that because that was a big ticket item when we were going through thousand PICs which you did. So I had, like about half my time was, like, PIC turbine, and had, like, fifteen hundred hours in in a jet. It was all instructor, you know, multi engine jet instructor time. But anyways, the guy was, if you don't have five thousand hours, he's, we can't talk to you. And that, you know, that's 2009.

Mike (30:31): He Virgin America won't even talk to me to fly an Airbus in the right seat. And I I'm a combat pilot that's commanded missions. But that was

Unknown Speaker (30:39): one of the worst hiring times of Oh. In aviation history.

Mike (30:43): Yes. It was absolutely awful, you know. Yeah. I went to the I went to a job fair the year before that, and the Compass guy who end up hiring me, like, months after I had this conversation with the Virgin America people, he told me at that job fair that I didn't have enough glass time to fly a Compass. Three months later, he hires me a Compass.

Mike (31:02): Yeah. Because he didn't wanna talk to me at the job fair because they could hire whoever they wanted. They're hiring, like, five guys a month at Compass, and that's how it was. That's how tight it was, and they could pick pick anything they wanted. They could pick their poison.

Unknown Speaker (31:14): I got that interview from through Outlook being furloughed at ComAir. I was able to get an interview at Compass. That kinda helped me out. So Yeah. It's the

Mike (31:21): same as the Spirit guys getting preferentials at United or have an American, whoever's calling them, like, take it. That's that's great. That's just the aviation It wasn't instant because

Unknown Speaker (31:30): I had to go through that whole Great Lakes experience, but, you know

Mike (31:34): Great mistakes. Do the yeah. This is today. A sinkhole opened up near runway at LaGuardia Airport. I heard it was four two two leading delays.

Mike (31:40): Yeah. There's it was port authority was conducting a daily inspection of the airfield around 11AM. The crews the crews discovered a sinkhole near 422. Rome was shut down. The emergency construction crew said to determine the cause, make repair.

Mike (31:53): Now if you shut down 422 at LaGuardia, and then there was this big storms that rolled through there too, like,

Unknown Speaker (32:00): forget it. I saw we were there was a bunch of flights starting to get canceled for this evening, I think. So

Mike (32:06): that's probably part of it. I didn't know you're to the pain Adding to the pain at LaGuardia. Alright. So let's I'll keep talking to Scooby. Hopefully he said he was gonna listen to the show too, so maybe he he listens

Unknown Speaker (32:20): to I mean, he's obviously got good experience. He just needs to be current, you know? Yeah. And I don't know what the tolerance what the currency definition is.

Unknown Speaker (32:28): And it changes, like remember back in He said 2,000

Unknown Speaker (32:31): he's willing to do CFI, doesn't have it though, right?

Mike (32:34): No, I think don't think he has have get

Unknown Speaker (32:36): it to spend a bunch of money on training that he doesn't really need, you know?

Mike (32:40): Right, because you could get gobbled up doing something else. The other side of it too is like if you're doing a 90 oneone 135, it could be gone. Depending upon who hires you, those jobs are really hit or miss depending upon who it is. My buddy John got hired. Did you What about doing some night?

Unknown Speaker (32:55): What about some night cargo stuff, you know? If you just bang that out in six for six months, he'd probably be good to go anywhere he wanted.

Mike (33:02): That's what that's what Jay did. He was flying that Saab, and he's just cranking hours. He would take anything in The Caribbean, he would turn it, you know, because he just wanted the hours.

Unknown Speaker (33:11): It'd be a rough few months, but it probably would only take six months. I mean, he definitely would have his currency then. Once he passed the training, he probably could start applying other places.

Unknown Speaker (33:18): Yeah. No. I agree. Yeah. There's a lot of different paths to go.

Unknown Speaker (33:21): It's like, what are you willing to do and stuff. I think he's got a young kid too.

Unknown Speaker (33:26): See, that makes it hard, but Yeah. Now or never kind of thing. You don't wanna put it off any more than you already have. Right?

Mike (33:33): It's every day that goes by. It's like what who got hired before you and all that other stuff. So let's talk about Spirit as well. This is a Wall Street Journal article, and it was talking about how rival airlines are carving up Spirit's roots in airports. This is why Jacob Massey and Allison Sider budget carriers like Breeze and Allegiant are moving to Spirit's former routes.

Mike (33:55): Take off and landing slots at airports are up for grabs. I saw today that Allegiant just added a bunch more flights too.

Unknown Speaker (34:02): Mhmm.

Mike (34:03): So, like, this is what we were talking about that was gonna go down before Spirit went under. We were talking about, like, what what does this mean? Like, as in the capitalist market, you know, are they gonna go out of business and then what's gonna happen after that?

Unknown Speaker (34:18): Think from an industry perspective, it's gonna be good, you know, but from a humanity perspective with the Spirit employees, it's terrible. I mean, and it's how do you balance that out? I don't know, you know. And that's, you know, it kind of stinks. But, you know, the market has been oversaturated for a long time.

Unknown Speaker (34:38): And then that's why airlines can't make money. They just can't. And yeah, Delta and United made money, but that's all off credit card and stuff, you know. I mean, you know, even American lost money, you know, and they still have the, know so there's things that are Delta and United are doing very well. Obviously, American's not doing because American has the same network.

Unknown Speaker (34:56): But it's very, very tough to make money right now. This is just a saturated market when you can how many flights are there between, you know, two cities and, you know, you get they're just cutting each other's throats, you know. So it's tough. So I think market wise, it's it's definitely good. That's why some of the airline stock have gone up since Jet since Spirit shut down.

Unknown Speaker (35:19): But, you know, that's kind of been rocked back the other way with the oil prices. So it's a crazy market, you know.

Mike (35:27): Yeah. One of the biggest airlines making a lot of moves is Breeze. You know, they're they're kinda taking advantage a lot of this stuff as well. Frontier added flights out of Orlando, And, you know, like you said, that you you gotta try to find ways to to just kinda do whatever you gotta figure out.

Unknown Speaker (35:46): Frontier and spear Frontier and spear. Frontier and Southwest are adding a lot in Orlando. JetBlue's hammering Fort Lauderdale really hard. Allegiant just added a few flights in and out of Fort Lauderdale. You know, I saw Avello is starting to do some different things.

Unknown Speaker (36:05): Saw Avello down in San Juan. I didn't even know they went there. So I mean, you know, people are stepping on, you know, they're in you know, I think that's what you expected. You know, I mean, people got to pick up the business. So why wouldn't you?

Mike (36:20): Yeah. I you know, I didn't realize the Spirit had 11% of the the passenger traffic out of Detroit. That's wild, Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (36:29): I mean, I didn't realize it was that high, but I mean, I knew that was their head like, their headquarters back in the day, you know. Well, like we talked about,

Mike (36:36): we saw those guys walk in the picket line in 2010 when they were on strike.

Unknown Speaker (36:40): Because I'm pretty sure that was their headquarters before they moved down to Fort Lauderdale.

Mike (36:45): Spears slots at LaGuardia are supposed to be evaluated at close to $87,000,000, and they were the only airline that was operating on a Marine Air Terminal, also known as Terminal A. Mike, you know anything about Marine Air Terminal? Been

Unknown Speaker (37:01): out of there a lot. I used to we used to go in there. I think it was Calm Air Delta days, like, for the Delta shuttle. I would go back to, like, from New York to Boston, New York to to Washington. That always parked in the Marine Air Terminal.

Unknown Speaker (37:14): So I think we might have gone there a little bit with Compass. I can't remember. But I know we went there with I went I know I went in there with Calm Air. And then JetBlue's been there. But, yeah, Spirit was the last one over there.

Mike (37:25): I I think that's a cool place. Just historically, you can still see like the old seaplane

Unknown Speaker (37:29): Yeah. And it's not as fancy. The new terminal's gorgeous over there. But just just from a pilot's perspective, getting in and out without the headache of taxiing around LaGuardia, the Marine Air Terminal is where it's at. That was super super

Mike (37:42): I the the new terminal at LaGuardia is beautiful, but I find that, like, the food options there are kinda weak. It seems like they want you to, like, sit down and have, a big meal and, like, I guess, like, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (37:54): I know there are a couple of There's a ton. You just gotta go way up across the bridge to the food court area.

Mike (37:59): I think you I don't think I've done that before. I forget where I was. There was a couple, like, trendy, like, pizza y salad places, and I was like, everything's real nice, but

Unknown Speaker (38:10): I just Yeah. Take the take the bridge. Go up go over the bridge, and there's a bunch of stuff over there. So staying on

Mike (38:16): the spirit stuff, like, sent this to me. This is a YouTube channel called Cockpit Casual, and there's two guys. One of them, he does cinematic documentary stuff with aviation, and he has a company called what's their company called? I forget. Nomadic Aviation.

Mike (38:34): Nomadic Aviation. That that makes sense because it kinda goes into it. So their business is they reposition airplanes around the world for whoever needs it. And this is where we're talking about with the Spirit Jets that a lot of these lesser company leasing leasing they're leasing companies. So, you know, anybody can own an airplane.

Mike (38:55): Like, Mike and I could go buy an airplane and then we could lease it to other airlines. And anybody will take it. Spirit goes out of business. So, like, I I hold on. I'm taking a call right now.

Unknown Speaker (39:06): It's from Russia. Do you like jet in Russia? How we get jet to Russia, Mike?

Unknown Speaker (39:11): What do we do? Call nomadic aviation.

Mike (39:16): Yeah. So those guys will come pick up the jet, and and they'll take it to Russia, and or if it's gotta get painted, they'll take it there and whatever they gotta do. And these guys document the whole thing. It's Steve and Bob, and and so when the Spirit Jets hit the the market essentially, their phone was blowing up. And they gotta move these airplanes, and they didn't have it wasn't one.

Mike (39:39): Like, maybe they move, like, one dash eight to, like, Greenland or something. Like, that might be all they do for, like, couple months. But now they got on the phone for like 20 airplanes. They gotta move like right now. So I thought this was a cool part of this.

Mike (39:53): So Yeah. Mike Mike sent it to me. It's called Big Yellow Inside the the Spirit Repo. So if you see that on YouTube, go check that out. It's cinematic or it's Cockpit Casual, and that's the name of the episode.

Mike (40:04): And what they did was they they reached out to Spirit Pilots that were furloughed. They're well, all Spirit guys are out out on the street, and they look for help because they knew they had Airbus qualified guys, and they could send them with their teams, and then they can move the airplanes with them. And so they did I thought they did a great job kind of like almost like a tribute to the legacy of the professionalism of Spirit. And we talked about that, Mike. Kind of the sad part about the loss of Spirit is that they get this bad rap for the the passenger's behavior and the product of, like, you gotta buy everything and, you know, it's a budget low cost.

Mike (40:47): That's what it was. You know? You knew that before you get on the jet. You weren't gonna get the steak and mashed potatoes. Like, no.

Unknown Speaker (40:54): But the people that worked there were ultra professional, and they've been there for a long time. And Spirit was around for how long did we say? Thirty five years? Was it long?

Unknown Speaker (41:02): Thirty something. Thirty eight years.

Mike (41:05): There are people that worked there from the get go, and, you know, they used Spirit Line people that they were working on, you know, to help them get the jets ready, to push back during during this the repo, and and they really did a great job complimenting those people who they knew they're left in limbo, and this was a way for them to make a few bucks while they're they don't have a job anymore and and still participate in in aviation aviation kind of send off. And it was funny too because the the camera's on some of them, and they're like, what are you guys taking videos of? And they're like, yeah. We're just kinda documenting this. It's kinda interesting.

Mike (41:47): Do you know what part was my favorite mic in the spirit documentary from that? I mean, it's it's about forty minutes. It's not huge. What was your favorite part?

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Unknown Speaker (42:25): I don't know. I mean, the whole thing was pretty interesting. I don't know. I mean, I kinda like the flight attendant at the end that had been there for, like, thirty years. You know?

Unknown Speaker (42:34): I don't know. Where are you getting at? I feel like I'm missing

Unknown Speaker (42:36): I think it was Steve. He he's like, I've been on the phone all morning. We gotta move to the same plane. I didn't get any food. I'm starving.

Unknown Speaker (42:46): Oh, so he starts eating the snacks that he found on the Spirit plane that were still there?

Unknown Speaker (42:49): They open up the galley carts, like, all the food is there. Like, all the snacks are still there, the Cokes and the water.

Unknown Speaker (42:56): Know you can go to, like, those planes that are parked in the desert and they're probably full of, like, stinky cheese and, you know. Because no one was gonna clean those things. And who's gonna open those things up?

Mike (43:07): What if you wanted like a vintage Coke can or something?

Unknown Speaker (43:11): Dude, I remember I remember I flew a plane. I repositioned an airplane during COVID that had been parked for a long time. And I was kinda like Steve was, I'm like, I'm kinda hungry. And I kinda started going through some stuff and found like a cheese plate. And it was like, had an expired date of like a year before or something like, no, thank you.

Mike (43:31): Oh, boy. Yeah. That one could put you in the hurt locker.

Unknown Speaker (43:35): Yeah. I'm just glad I looked at the date. Didn't start eating it.

Mike (43:39): Still look good. It was like, this one still looks good, but yeah. We checked the date on that one, Mike. Let's hit one more story here, Mike. I don't know if you saw this, but there were two e a f e a f no.

Mike (43:52): F Growlers. They're they're growlers. They're f 18 growlers. They crashed during an air show in Mountain Home, Idaho, which is an air force base kinda in the middle I don't know if it's in middle of nowhere. I've never been there.

Mike (44:06): It's I don't know. But this is not good. I don't know if you saw it's about let's see. It's 40 miles Southeast of Boise on Interstate 84. I didn't know that.

Mike (44:18): They have f eighteens on the base of Mountain Home. It was formed in nineteen forties as a World War two base, had some transports. They had some f sixteens. They had the e a what was it? The what was the one that had or the e f one eleven a Raven.

Mike (44:34): You remember that plane? It had, like, the wings that would, like, sweep back. Supposed to be, like, stealthy, but it wasn't. But anyways, have you seen the video of this, Mike? The like, the full video.

Mike (44:45): So they're they're doing formation, and they're doing, like, a formation rezone rejoin. It didn't look like they were going that fast. They just botched the rejoin. And somehow they collide together and the planes were like stuck.

Unknown Speaker (45:01): Yeah. They were like yeah. They were

Mike (45:04): dancing. And then yeah. And and then you see the ejections happen, and and it's just like there's four of them. It's like, boom, boom, and they all come out, and you see the four chutes. Now I don't know why there are four people on those aircraft either.

Mike (45:16): I Maybe they're giving rides to people. I I don't know what was going on with that, but the end result is those jets go into the ground and make a big fireball of black smoke, and then the parachutes, like, come down and and kinda land near that. But I think all four of the crew members were reported as okay. I don't know what okay means. I'm sure just like we talked about in an any ejection, you're gonna have some injuries just like an evacuation.

Mike (45:43): You compress your spine like that when a rocket ejects you from an airplane. It's not a not a good day.

Unknown Speaker (45:49): Yeah. And you see the rocket that shoots them out like it there's like a little explosions when they pop out. It's kinda crazy.

Mike (45:55): Yeah. Absolutely. I've heard you could you lose like an inch of your height because you're

Unknown Speaker (46:00): I've heard that too.

Unknown Speaker (46:01): Is that an old wives' tailor? It's like don't know what I do.

Unknown Speaker (46:04): My I don't have enough inches to give up in an injection. I don't either, Mikey. I mean, you're taller than me, I think.

Mike (46:12): I'm not I'm not on the basketball team. Not not in the least bit. No. You and I, we can start our own Spud McKenzie bags. And by Spud, I think Spud McKenzie is like five foot ten or eleven twelve.

Unknown Speaker (46:23): Don't know. I don't know. Think I'm five ten, I think. I'll tell you. I'm five seven.

Mike (46:27): I'm five seven. That's an old Dave Letterman bit. Listen to this though. So the Mountain Home, Idaho air show has not been kind to performers. And I don't remember this, Mike, but there was a Thunderbirds f 16, and he was doing the split s maneuver a little too low to the ground, and they had set their altimeters incorrectly where they had been performing their shows.

Mike (46:56): He was 400 feet too low. So when he got to the yeah. He got into the hard deck, he realized that no bueno, not enough altitude, like Mav dropping below the hard deck. And except he was really at the ground, and he pointed the jet away from kinda like the the people, and then he pulled the lever and came out of the f 16 and then the f 16 just kinda goes into the dirt. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (47:23): Wrong. So that was 2,000 feet.

Unknown Speaker (47:25): 400 feet low. That's

Mike (47:28): Yeah. He was supposed to be at 2,500 feet and he was at sixteen seventy. He ejected less than one sec before one second before the impact, and his parachute just deployed, like, right before he touched the ground, and he had minor energies. No one on the ground was injured, and they lost the aircraft, which at that time was worth $20,000,000. Mike, how much is a f 18 Growler cost?

Unknown Speaker (47:54): If you were gonna go down to Home Depot and pick one up, what what do you think?

Unknown Speaker (47:59): I don't know. 40,000,000. I don't know. 40,000,000? I have no idea.

Unknown Speaker (48:04): I'm just going off of what you said 20,000,000 back in, you

Mike (48:07): know, furnace thousand three is a f 16.

Unknown Speaker (48:09): So So, yeah. Twenty years of inflation. I don't know.

Mike (48:12): Sixty 40,000,000. I think big Al down at the the old used car lot, he might be able to get you 40,000,000. But if you wanna buy it new, it's gonna cost you 67,000,000.

Unknown Speaker (48:22): There you

Mike (48:22): go. That's a wrap. Mike, let's wrap this show up. I think we we did the fans a solid by getting this show in. We appreciate you guys being here.

Mike (48:32): We'll follow-up on everything that's happening that we talked about during this show. Hopefully, we can These shows are gonna be different

Unknown Speaker (48:37): with you and training and and things, so we'll make it work as best we can, you know, but

Mike (48:42): Yeah. Maybe we just do, like, an interview if we can pop somebody else into it. We still I've been talking to Jay from the lower the bar. He's been in time in that house by yourself,

Unknown Speaker (48:52): and you're gonna be interviewing Wilson back there. I just know it.

Unknown Speaker (48:55): I told you, Wilson. I know where there's extra cord, but we're not going up there. Quiet,

Unknown Speaker (49:01): Wilson.

Mike (49:02): Hopefully, you gotta watch the video for that. Okay, Mike. You have a great vacation, and I will talk to you again.

Unknown Speaker (49:08): Good luck in training, Tom. Thank you, sir.

Tom (49:11): Wait. You've been listening to the Black Box Aviation Podcast. Real pilots, real stories, and aviation news the way it's actually talked about in the cockpit. If you like what you heard, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow so you don't miss an episode. Until next time.

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