Air France 447 Manslaughter Verdict & Southwest 1248: The Truth About Runway Braking Action

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Unknown Speaker (0:30): Engine spooled. Checklist complete. Welcome to the Black Box Aviation podcast, where the stories behind the headlines get unpacked by the people who actually fly the damn plane. Hosted by Tom, a former military pilot turned airline and cargo, and Mike, a lifelong civilian flyer now flying left seat as an airline captain. It's aviation news, insider insight, and real pilot perspective.

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Unknown Speaker (0:57): Ladies Ladies and and gentlemen, gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Black Box TV. Showing me podcast. How many co hosts? Tom joined by Mike Mike Mike Mike Mike. I just stepped all over you in my intro.

Unknown Speaker (1:06): Okay, man. What's

Unknown Speaker (1:06): up? You should've taken my cue though and waited for me to finish the moo moo moo mics.

Unknown Speaker (1:10): You you extended it that time.

Mike (1:12): We discussed this earlier. It's only three moo mamas, and then you get into the show. What's wrong with you? My fault. I blew it.

Mike (1:20): The preshow all the preshow biddings are out. Of course, I've been hitting the booze here a little bit, so I little wired up. Mike, this is 06/01/2026. What is the significance of this date in history?

Unknown Speaker (1:36): Well, it's the Air France date because we just did that. We did an episode on the Air France crash, crash, the four forty seven, the Airbus three thirty. It was June 1.

Mike (1:47): Oh, was. Yeah. Yep. That's right. And that is what we're leading into because we want you to check this out.

Unknown Speaker (1:57): Oh, Air France four forty seven was the one in Brazil, right?

Unknown Speaker (2:00): The one that left Brazil and then ended up in the Atlantic.

Mike (2:04): Yes. 447 Brazil, it was lost, everyone's lost on board, and there's more significance to this too because there's the lawsuit. And this is a crazy story when it comes down to it because we sort of you told me about it, I think earlier this week, you were like, oh, dude. They just settled the lawsuit. Yeah.

Mike (2:23): I was like, didn't they settle the lawsuit, like, ten years ago?

Unknown Speaker (2:28): You would have not. Yeah.

Mike (2:31): I mean, the crash happened a long time ago, and you're like, well, what's going on with that? But so here's what happens. And if you wanna go back, I think you need to go back and listen to the the Hot Topic episode. It was on February 20. We we covered the whole thing, and it actually got a lot of plays, I think, too.

Mike (2:48): So people liked it. So go back and listen to that. So from 2011, a French judge ordered Air France to pay a 126,000 so a $177,000 compensation of family of each victim. That was the 2009 crash of the Air France crash. Now this was under the Montreal Convention.

Mike (3:11): And when that happened, they the families, like, weren't happy, and they kept pushing them to to prosecute Airbus and Air France criminally for this for the liability of this accident, and they wanted to charge them with manslaughter. And I guess you can do that in the French courts and, you know, I don't know. You think I

Unknown Speaker (3:33): have no idea.

Mike (3:34): How that works with the liability. And they were saying that Air France, their procedures caused the accident because they didn't know the pilots didn't know how to act. And then Airbus made a faulty pitot static system, and that's what caused the plane to crash. So they're all liable for manslaughter. Now I'm like, alright, I guess.

Mike (3:49): But the courts kept dropping this case, so they dropped it in because I wanted to stretch,

Tom (3:54): you know, like Yeah. You know, we all know why. Pilot Air was the biggest contributor to this.

Mike (3:59): That was the biggest one for sure. The guys just kept didn't understand what the airplane was telling them. Now they it was a catastrophic icing incident that caused it caused the icing in the pit of stacks. What caused

Unknown Speaker (4:11): the icing? Flying into a thunderstorm that they shouldn't have been doing. We could debate this all day, but somehow the lawsuit went through.

Mike (4:18): Yeah, and these guys are flying into, you know, when you come off the South Atlantic there, there's some nasty weather.

Tom (4:23): Mean, that's what Airbus gets sued for, but how many Airbuses have been flying in the world and how many have done this? Yeah. It's not a design problem.

Mike (4:32): So but that's the weird part about this and how this kept coming up in the courts. And so they dropped the case against Airbus in July 2019, and then the case against Air France got dropped right after that. So then they were the the prosecutor said there's not enough ground the magistrate says there's not enough grounds not enough to prosecute him. So then in 2021, a public prosecutor in Paris, they brought him up again on charges, and they did it again. And the trial opened in 2022, and they faced the same involuntary manslaughter charge.

Mike (5:04): And then they announced shortly after that, they're not gonna continue with the prosecution because there's not enough evidence to prosecute. Well, the third time's a charm, I guess, because finally, they open another trial 09/02/2025, and on May 2026, just last month, they companies are found guilty of manslaughter. So corporate manslaughter is murder was the case that they gave me. That's Snoop Dogg rap right there.

Unknown Speaker (5:30): There you go.

Mike (5:30): Everybody hit dog right there. Murder was a case. This is corporate manslaughter was the case that they gave me. Should I I think I can make a song about that. Like, what do you think?

Unknown Speaker (5:40): Yo, DJT here. We'd be on corporate manslaughter. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (5:44): Probably not.

Unknown Speaker (5:45): Alright. Don't cut that from

Unknown Speaker (5:47): the show. I like that. I'm not cutting it. It's unedited. Just don't swear we don't do that.

Mike (5:52): They rung up the companies to pay a max fine, which is €225,000 to the victims of the accident. So in the end, I they're gonna get another payout, but it doesn't bring anyone back. It's seventeen years

Unknown Speaker (6:10): ago, know, this It's is a long been

Mike (6:13): a long time, but this did play out in the courts again. Could that get appealed or whatever? I don't know. I'm not a magistrate.

Tom (6:21): So You know I just thought about? Remember we were talking about? It's been a while ago, how they used to sell life insurance and like vending machines when you get on airplanes?

Unknown Speaker (6:28): Remember we did that show about that guy that bought the life insurance? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker (6:33): My mom was like, I remember them doing that. I was like, really?

Unknown Speaker (6:37): Yeah, it's wild. You could buy it right there. Like the guy bought it from like a vending machine. It's like buying a lotto ticket. And that guy for you.

Mike (6:46): Right. Not for you. Well, that guy had rigged it because he put his buddy on the plane, took a life insurance policy on him, and there was a bomb in his suitcase that he had given him. You gotta go back and listen to that show. I think that was had to be, like, October last year, maybe September, October last year.

Unknown Speaker (7:02): Go look for

Mike (7:02): that one. I forget what what that was. It was a domestic flight. That's a US flight. It was like from Louisiana to like New Mexico.

Unknown Speaker (7:09): Don't know. Let me think about that.

Unknown Speaker (7:11): Just paying out people after a crash, know, so I thought, oh yeah, insurance. So

Mike (7:17): not a good day for Airbus and Air France, but that's how it goes down, and it is this day in history, it's very ironic that came

Tom (7:25): out like the week before the anniversary, you know.

Mike (7:28): Yeah. I agree. Maybe that's what they were working for. I I don't know. What we want you to think about too though is we just did a hot topic on Air France flight three five eight, which was going into Toronto.

Mike (7:41): That's gonna come out next week, so we want you to check that out. But that is going to involve some weather and landing long, which is gonna play into the discussion about braking action that we're gonna talk about today. And let's get into that right now, Mike. What do you think about breaking action? Because you've lived and flown enough in the history of aviation to see the changes happen and how much of these rules really affected your life and changed everything for the better?

Unknown Speaker (8:15): We'll go with nil.

Mike (8:18): Nil? That's possibly a breaking action.

Tom (8:23): Yeah, the changes haven't. I don't know, I guess the verbiage has changed, right? With the the idea is the same. The way we use it is the same. You know, mean, you get your landing data back a little differently now, I guess.

Tom (8:40): But I can't say that it's made a huge difference.

Unknown Speaker (8:43): Yeah, so prior to I guess they try

Unknown Speaker (8:45): to make it more consistent, you know, I don't know.

Mike (8:48): Yeah, and I think the big thing was that the switch to the new breaking action would tell you different parts of the runway might have varying

Unknown Speaker (8:56): conditions, and

Mike (8:58): that's like the biggest thing that came of this. And I think maybe it's more from like a liability standpoint to say like, well, we told you that the first third was different than the last third. I guess, but what do

Unknown Speaker (9:10): you do? You go with whatever the worst third is and you just use that for the whole thing, I would think, right?

Unknown Speaker (9:15): I would probably hope that that's the case as we saw in Air France, they didn't land in the first third it's of

Unknown Speaker (9:22): more in the first third and then it gets good. So we'll just land halfway down the runway. How's that sound?

Mike (9:25): That's what Air France decided and they ended up in a ditch. So yeah, that doesn't work so good. So the old thing was based on what they call the mu factor, and it was a function of friction. And it was actually the higher number was bad. The low number was okay.

Mike (9:43): The high number was bad. Do you remember that Mike? That used to screw everybody up. And I got a buddy when so when I was an instructor flying t ones in Oklahoma, They gave us the keys to the beach jet. Now there were guys that were they call them FAPES, first assignment instructor pilot.

Mike (10:01): So the first time they're they get their assignment, they're gonna give them an instructor slot. And you say, well, how can this guy be an instructor if he has no flight time? Well, he can because they want him to continue to fly and get better. Now when you're done flying your jet training, like, you're an expert in it. Like, you're so good at it.

Mike (10:18): Yeah. You're gonna have to learn to be an instructor and tell people, you know, teach other people how to fly. And that was tough because, you know, you were just a student yourself and now all of a sudden you're only like 23 years old and now, you know, you're teaching people to fly that just are the same rank as you, you know, and they're brand new sometimes there's people that are higher ranks than you and you're still teaching them. So but that's what they did, and these guys would build hours and then they would go on to the next platform. But the reality is they still don't have a lot of real world experience.

Mike (10:48): Now flying the t one, we would get kicked the keys to the airplane and you could do like a structured cross country. And that's good because you build time, you get away from the base, you get away from the training environment, hopefully you fly with somebody else that's got a lot of real world experience. Like, I would I would take guys all around the place, and I would get things done that I need to get done. Like, I would get a cross country and be like, I gotta do an interview the Navy Reserve in Pennsylvania. So that's where we're going.

Mike (11:10): Who wants to go? And somebody be like, Oh, okay, I'll go with you. I've been to Pennsylvania. I'm like, Good, let's go. You know, I took another guy, we did the Hudson River Run.

Mike (11:19): He had never seen the foliage in New England. And we you know, I run the Hudson River with him, and he's like, I don't think we should be doing this. I'm like, just say your call sign, your Air Force call sign, it doesn't matter. But these guys didn't have a lot of experience doing things like that. So my buddy, he he takes a jet with one of his buddies that's not I forget what the rules were, but he was with someone that I should have known better, I think.

Mike (11:45): And they went into Denver Centennial, which is pretty close to, like, it's near, like, Colorado Springs. I think that's probably a good representation of this. You have to look it up and get closer. But it's one runway, and it's pretty long. But they went up there and it was snowing.

Mike (12:01): And again, they have a lot of experience in the snow, and so they get a new report that's like 99 or something, which is not good. And they did they're like, oh, 99. That's good. It's almost a 100% breaking. It's great.

Mike (12:13): And they go in and he said he touched down, you know, the normal touchdown zone. It was snowing like crazy. And he said the airplane just kept going. And that jet had just brakes, no thrust reversers, and and it had anti skid, but he said they just kept going. And they were just

Unknown Speaker (12:29): That's looking gonna be a bad feeling, you know?

Mike (12:31): Yeah. Like, he went they went down, like, 9,000 feet. And they finally he said they stopped at, like, the last brick on the runway. And he had just enough, like, friction to get the the jet, like, turned around. Because he had used, like, differential thrust and, like, turn the thing around, and it was it was not good.

Mike (12:53): So yeah. Actually, it's the other way around. Like, it's the mu is the low the low mu is is is bad, the high mu. So he said mu is one. He was like, well it's not high, that's low.

Unknown Speaker (13:05): So it's good, good break. Yeah, you started

Unknown Speaker (13:06): confusing me too. Was like,

Mike (13:07): yeah, had it backwards. The mu value was like one and that was bad. But they thought it was good. They're like number one, that's excellent. So that so this is where things got confusing in the old world of things, and it didn't really give you an and they would run like a truck down the runway and slam on the brakes and be like, yeah, this is what the mu action is.

Mike (13:27): And then they would put it out on on the eightieth. So when you checked in, you would get that get that things. Now there's an incident that happens in 2005 that kinda gets the ball rolling with why this changes. Now this comes up again later because there was another incident that's kinda running again. And and this is what it takes things to cause, you know, changes in what we do.

Mike (13:53): It's usually an accident or incident that changes what, you know, what what it is. But this is Southwest Flight twelve forty eight in the Chicago Midway, Mike. You you remember this accident?

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Unknown Speaker (14:30): Enjoy responsibly.

Unknown Speaker (14:32): Yeah. For sure.

Mike (14:33): And and this is a big deal because it's Southwest's what? Kinda hits the headline for everybody.

Unknown Speaker (14:39): The first fatality.

Mike (14:40): Yeah. It's their first fatality. The jet goes off the end of the runway and hits a couple cars and kills a kid in one of the cars Yep. Which is super bad. But this is interesting because the jet takes off late from Baltimore, and they get late because of a ground delay into Midway.

Mike (14:58): And now it's snowing like crazy. Now ground delay program, like, I know, you're kinda talk about, like, what that means. You deal with it quite a bit. You just it's they're they're reducing the

Tom (15:09): amount of flow of airplanes into an airport. So if you're on the ground X amount of miles away, they're gonna restrict your ability to take off when you're going to that airport. Like so for this one was midway you said so there's a ground delay program. They're going to give you an estimated departure time. And it could be it could be up to I don't know how many hours.

Tom (15:29): It could be a long time. It could be a short time. You know, it just depends on how bad the flow is. And, you know, a lot of times they restrict it to the closer airplanes because that's, you know, they're the one they're gonna get there quicker. Right?

Tom (15:40): So they don't want the highways overloaded getting into the airport, basically.

Unknown Speaker (15:47): That's what I was gonna say. Like, they only had a ground delay program for like when everyone leaves work, you know, at 4PM or whatever it is, you know, like, no, you're not leaving till six. That's how

Unknown Speaker (15:58): it is. People would go crazy. They do go crazy on the airplane.

Mike (16:02): We freak out too. Be like, you gotta be kidding me, ground to lay program.

Tom (16:06): That's The when worst they come out with it after you've already boarded the airplane because now you're like, now what do I do? It's nice if they do it before you board and you tell the people at the gate and all that. But after you board and push, now they come out with it, you're like, oh

Mike (16:21): my gosh, now what? And you can see this, like if you just go to the Google's and put in like FAA Grand Ale, like you can see it, Sure. You know, the FAA will show you, like, who's in Grand Ale, and if there's bad weather in New York now, shouldn't go deciding, you know, how how long you can sit down and order your Italian dinner and then still make it to the airport. Don't do that because they cancel ground Yeah,

Unknown Speaker (16:43): they can as

Mike (16:44): soon as they start. Because that's what we do. So if I'm in Fort Lauderdale or something, and I'm waiting for the ground leg program to go up for a thunderstorm like mitigation in New York, and I'm like, yes, I'm not gonna time out. And then all of sudden they lift it because nothing happens, and then, you know, you you're like, oh, no. I have to go do all that work.

Mike (17:02): But in this case, Southwest is going to Midway, and there's a Ground Alay program because eight inches of snow is falling. Actually, they'd already fallen. They're still falling. Half mile viz in snow right now in Chicago Midway. They got freezing frog fog and there's crosswind gusts at 12 knots.

Mike (17:17): Not not very good. Now if we talk about Chicago Midway, Mike, you've been there a bunch of times, so have I. It's it's an interesting place because you've got four intersecting runways. It looks like a giant h. It's it's crazy.

Mike (17:33): It looks like a big hashtag. Yep. Hit the hashtag. Smash the like. Nicole said, don't do that because I sound like a weirdo.

Unknown Speaker (17:40): But, yeah, it looks like a big asshole. That's what

Unknown Speaker (17:42): put that's what put her over the edge, that one? Yeah. Like, not the other 5,000 things.

Mike (17:47): Wow. What other 5,000 things? Look at this is bringing the show's going to a new low here. It look it's a crazy the airport is wild. And the first time I'm going there, was like, man, I don't know what's going on here.

Mike (18:00): And the runways are short. It's short. Yeah. Some there's none of them, like, 6,500 feet, you know, and a lot of corporate jets there too. So you say, you might say, oh, well, you know, the traffic's flowing here, but you will have a corporate jet all of sudden blast off on another runway because they only need

Unknown Speaker (18:15): Well, that's where Southwest had that corporate jet cut them off and they had to do a go around.

Mike (18:19): Absolutely. This is a high environment, high tempo airport, and the other thing about it is it's smack dab in the middle of a neighborhood. Now I'm gonna tell you why that's a good thing. Because if you have it overnight at Midway and they put you close to the hotel, there are a lot of really good places

Unknown Speaker (18:38): to go eat on an overnight places.

Mike (18:41): The pizza places are awesome. I've told the story where we were at Compass and I had the foil and we started heating up the pizza in the oven. And the passengers are like, well, it smells so delicious. I'm like, oh, it's not for you. That's my pizza.

Mike (18:56): So you're gonna get a cold Here's your Biscoff cookie. And a Biscoff cookie. You're welcome. So 31 Center is the accident runway that's gonna happen. It's 3,000 or 6,522 feet long, and we talked about the the four runways there.

Mike (19:13): There's the neighborhoods. Now what's cool about Southwest is that they their corporate culture allows these crews to make decisions kind of regarding safety and operational constraints more towards the pilots using their professional knowledge and their judgment as far as versus saying, you know, dispatch is like, we gotta get these flights because I need this gate. I need that. And at this time, I don't know what the culture's changed there or not. If you're a Southwest guy, go ahead and let us know.

Mike (19:38): Tell us if we're talking great if I'm talking crazy talk right now. (203) 699-6792. Drop that in there. Send us a text and tell

Unknown Speaker (19:45): us what's going on or send

Mike (19:46): us an email, blackbox01@yahoo.com and and tell us what's going on because I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on Midway. Look, I've been in on approaching the Midway too at Compass and I think it was like 6,000 feet. I'm going 250 knots and Southwest passes me. He passed me, Mike. Now theoretically, that's impossible because everybody's supposed to go 250 knots below 10,000 feet.

Mike (20:09): However, in Midway, if your tail says Southwest and that's your call sign, there's another set of rules for you, But that's a whole different story. It wasn't the tailwind because the tailwind would have been pushing me too. So he went right underneath. And how about that? So the crew's flying and they they know what's going on.

Mike (20:26): The captain's got over four thousand hours at 07:37. He's got an air force mil background. The FO's got over eight thousand hours total time, two thousand in July, and he was a captain at Massawa. So he was flying most likely the Saab, I would guess at Massawa.

Unknown Speaker (20:40): Could have been CRJ. They had CRJs too. I don't know what, you know,

Mike (20:44): This is 2005, so maybe. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (20:48): There's a good chance it was a Saab.

Mike (20:49): But But these both these guys are very experienced. And and a a captain of Massawa, he's got no problem flying in the snow. You know, he's based in Minneapolis. That's where Massawa is. Yeah.

Mike (21:00): He ain't scared. He ain't scared. So the captain gets a weather brief from the company advising that three one center is a better option with the breaking reported good on the first third of the runway and poor on the remaining third. Now the company's getting those reports. This is before the RCAM stuff comes out and the matrix changes to tell you the different reporting action.

Mike (21:20): This is just the new base thing and that's how you would get reported. So the flight enter whole enters holding because there's an air traffic control delay, and they're gonna clear the runways of snow. This is why it would have been great. We had Ian lined up for today's show, but he ended up running into a problem, couldn't make it. These are the questions that we would pepper him with with all these delays and everything like that.

Mike (21:42): Actually, Mike told me, he's like, start making a list of all the questions that we need to ask him. And I literally did. I was cutting and pasting questions, and I already have a full page. So Ian, if you listen to the show, like, man, you better bring a yeah, you better have your sweatband in on your nineteen seventies basketball sweatband in on before you start the show because we're coming, baby. We're coming.

Unknown Speaker (22:02): We're gonna have the question.

Tom (22:03): How many times many times have we been doing an episode like, we need to talk to Ian about that. We need to talk about Ian, and then it's like, and then you forget about

Mike (22:09): it, you know? Yeah, you totally forget. So we gotta cut those up, but I made a tab for that, so we got it. We got a running tab. So these guys are in holding and they're talking about the weather, they and so they know what's going on.

Mike (22:24): Now if you're in holding, like, this is a great time for you to go ahead and talk about to the other guy about what's going on. Of course, there's other things you gotta talk about. Anytime you go to holding, you gotta think about your fuel. And look, Mike, kinda like what we talked about in the Air France accident. If you're in holding and they're clearing snow in this runway, what are you thinking about?

Unknown Speaker (22:43): What should you be thinking about?

Tom (22:45): Well, if they got snow on the runway, you're you're definitely thinking about braking action.

Unknown Speaker (22:48): That for sure. And landing

Tom (22:50): distances and things like that, right?

Mike (22:53): Yeah, and maybe even an alternate like, Hey, where else could we go that maybe

Unknown Speaker (22:56): there's That something goes with any hold, right? Because if it's close for snow removal, it could take a while.

Mike (23:02): Yeah. You gotta look at your fuel, and that's something we do. As soon as we get a holding, you say the first thing you wanna do is like, how long can I stay here in holding? Because air traffic has got other things going on. You need to worry about yourself because you can't just be sitting there waiting for Well, they'll tell me when they're ready.

Mike (23:16): Well, yeah, they will. But if you need to leave before that, you need to tell them you you're leaving and this is why and where you're going. And I've had that happen. Have have you had that happen in mid holding and been like, I need to leave?

Tom (23:30): Yeah. You'd be like, we can do one more turn. You're kind of sometimes, know?

Unknown Speaker (23:35): Yeah. And sometimes when you say that to them, suddenly, like, they get priority. They'll be like, okay, you're, you know, you after this turn, you're cleared in, blah blah blah.

Tom (23:43): And Have you ever been holding and you know that you're getting tight and someone else says that they got one more turn and they get cleared and and you're like, son of a

Unknown Speaker (23:50): like, should have said something, you know,

Unknown Speaker (23:51): because now you know you just

Mike (23:53): I'm usually planning where I'm going that I'm gonna enjoy more than the destination, but no. No, yeah, that's definitely uncomfortable because there's only a couple people that are going to get to go. So if suddenly that guy says he's got to go and you're like, oh no, it'd be like waiting in line for the bathroom, you know, like, oh, I really got to go. Well, that guy's gonna get it. You're not.

Mike (24:13): So so those are some of the things you're talking about when you're you're in Holi and stuff. And these guys are definitely doing that stuff. The FO runs the data on the computer, they had a tablet.

Tom (24:25): I remember them having the tablet.

Mike (24:28): But what he does, Mike, is that he runs it twice. So he runs the first one with good conditions, and they get a six forty foot stopping margin that's left in the so they have the runway available by 640 feet. Then he runs it again with a full runway that's fair condition fair braking, and they end up with 40 feet left over. So quite a bit of constraint there comes in where they're not playing with a lot of extra distance based on the two stopping parameters, the good and the fair reporting data. Now the data assumes that the thrust reversals would be deployed immediately at touchdown.

Mike (25:05): And here's the other thing is that other airplanes are getting in and they're landing on three one center and this 4,500 RVR. So other people are landing

Unknown Speaker (25:11): and Well, if he can do it, I Yeah. Can do

Mike (25:14): And that's kind of like one of those things. Right? Because other people are getting in and doing it. So you're like, like, Why get I I guess I have to be able to be doing it too. So then Tower advises them again, half the runway is good breaking, half the runway is poor.

Mike (25:28): They don't tell you which one is which, but that's what you get. But you

Tom (25:32): just assume the whole thing is poor. Like, you don't.

Mike (25:34): Right. That would be a thing. So, like, in so they they end up coming down. They talked about all the parameters. They touch down in the touchdown zone, but the captain fails to deploy the thrust reversers.

Mike (25:47): The thrust reversers don't come out until eighteen seconds after touchdown. The first officer actually pushes the captain's hands off the thruster levers and deploys them himself.

Unknown Speaker (25:57): Wow. The jet departs again.

Mike (26:00): Yeah. The jet departs again to the runway, crash through the ILS antenna, a metal fence, and then three cars are hit, and a six year old boy is killed. This family of four is seriously injured. A second car got hit, four more people got hurt. There's 18 people on the airplane that get injured from the either the impact or the evacuation like we talked about.

Mike (26:16): If you'd see pictures of this, the slides deploy, they're all over the cars and people are like sliding down the slides and hitting things. And it's snowing too, so, you know, this is kind of what happened. So again, we go into the NTSB investigation and, you know, obviously weather's gonna be a factor in the system, but the NTSB looks right away about what equipment was functioning and malfunctioning on the aircraft. So they pull the TRs, TRs are functioning normally. This pilot here, captain never attempted to deploy the thrust reversers after the initial attempt.

Unknown Speaker (26:48): Now we talked

Tom (26:48): about on the CVR, I'm sure he said something. The first officer would have said no reverse or something, right?

Mike (26:54): He didn't say anything. I don't have the CVRs, but he was looking at it, but this is what distracted them. The two of them, there was a new autobrake system on the aircraft, and they were both getting used to seeing it and using it. So they selected the autobrakes. Now what we do in the autobrakes is you can select different settings, and depending upon what you need from the brakes.

Mike (27:15): The brakes will touch down again, depend upon like the system. So is it, you know, weight on wheels? Is it a wheel spool up? The nose wheel touchdown? There's different parameters for different airplanes, but the brakes will immediately start applying.

Mike (27:29): They don't they don't wait for you to do it. And once they do, they're gonna do it at a deceleration rate that you've selected, and you should have those numbers in your performance software that tell you which number to select. You could also select max if you needed to. Mike, in a sixty five hundred foot runway with fair braking condition, I'm probably gonna select max. I don't know about you.

Tom (27:49): I mean, I don't know what the we don't have that. We don't land with max. Max only for, you know, takeoff, but we have low, medium, and then manually. I would get on I'd probably set medium, and then I would get on it myself, you know.

Unknown Speaker (28:00): Yeah. I don't Which would be our

Unknown Speaker (28:02): max, I guess.

Mike (28:03): Yeah. Your max on the Airbus, and and they're all different on different airplanes too, so you'd have to see what it is. But you're gonna use the maximum possible available truck. You're saying like, if you land

Tom (28:13): it on And I'm gonna land firm, you know, it's not gonna be a butter landing, you know, because you want to get that friction with the tire and onto the pavement, you know.

Mike (28:20): Absolutely. These are things that are gonna help you get the airplane stopping. And that's all you should be thinking about stopping. So these guys are looking at the autobrake system and the airplane's not stopping. But they're like, well, maybe it's a wee gee whiz, like, is how it works.

Mike (28:32): And that's when the the FO realizes that the three TRs aren't out, and then he does it himself. So he pulls the TRs himself. But which is interesting at your company, Mike, you guys have actually a call out that's reverse green. Right? Do you still have that call out?

Tom (28:45): Absolutely. And that's why I was saying that he's saying anything because like you're supposed to say reverse green meaning they're working or no reverse because ding dong didn't get them in, you know. And I tell guys all the time, you're the guy in the left seat is only there because he got hired before you. So an evacuate and not an evacuation, but a rejected takeoff. Maybe that captain didn't get the reversers in there because he's freaking out.

Tom (29:06): Right? So tell him no reverse, you know.

Mike (29:09): So my company, there's no no reverse or call.

Unknown Speaker (29:12): Not None at all.

Mike (29:13): Spoilers and the next call is 60 knots. Now I look at them because that's the way I was trained at the other company. I say in my head, reverse is green. I literally say that in my head because I've called out many times, no reverse number two, no reverse on one.

Unknown Speaker (29:26): Do you guys ever land without him? Like, do you guys ever land without him?

Mike (29:29): Absolutely not. No. Exactly.

Tom (29:31): So it would be weird to not see him. Right? So I mean, I guess make your own call out if he doesn't put him in, you know, because last thing you wanna do is tell the FAA why you didn't anything when you go off the end of the runway with the Verorsch or Stout.

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Mike (30:13): I agree. And that's why I call I'll call out no reverse, and the captain be like, I can't believe you saw that. Like, how do

Unknown Speaker (30:19): you not see that? Right? Good on you.

Mike (30:23): But the only reason I do it is because I was trained to do it at another company, and I mean that's a positive cross, you know, learn behavior, but again, I keep don't say it out loud, but I think in my head. Same thing as when I started an engine. I say oil pressure rising N1. I say that in my head every time. Is that

Unknown Speaker (30:40): from the Air Force?

Unknown Speaker (30:41): Yeah, because you want to see that. Sure. If you don't have that, you got a problem.

Tom (30:46): Yeah, well we got a FADEC now that does all that stuff for us. We don't do nothing.

Mike (30:49): You don't do anything. Although the Fadeq and the triple, all I have to see is positive oil pressure by light off, by EGT rise. That's the only thing it doesn't monitor for. It'll do everything. You try to start the engine five times today with

Tom (31:02): The hot thing we interrupt the start for would be a tailpipe fire or a loss of electrical power like during startup like you're doing a your APU takes a crap or something you know something that because the FADEC won't work at that point, right? But if it's a hot start or a hung start or something, you just let FADEC run its course and it'll drive motor and everything. Yeah.

Mike (31:25): It's totally true. So this accident goes and also points out the fact that they don't have the EMASS. We talked about that in the episode that you'll hear next week. The engineered materials arresting system. Again, it's just a crushed concrete that decelerates.

Mike (31:43): It takes energy out of the out of anything that's moving. In this case, an airplane that still has landing gear out, hopefully. Maybe even if it doesn't, it would it absorb it, but it's gonna decelerate you to hopefully prevent you going into a fence or leaving the airfield or into a ditch. That'll come up later. But this aircraft, the Southwest flight, it went through a fence and then, you know, it crashes into the road.

Mike (32:09): It goes into the highway. But another thing they cite in this accident is the inaccurate friction predictions. The pilots used the laptops performance tool. It was relying on the older friction measurement guidelines and didn't give them a bad stopping margin. The misleading pilot reports, people were reporting good on the first half of the runway, but it was actually poor in the latter half during the accumulating snow.

Mike (32:31): So this is where the old new braking action

Tom (32:33): In in the in the the half is probably harder to predict because by that point, your brakes are already engaged. You're already slowing down. You don't really feel it as much now if you you land at 130 some knots and you don't feel it, you're going to know right away. Right? Like, think that's good point.

Tom (32:49): It probably is harder to be given accurate estimation when you're only doing 50 knots, 40 knots.

Mike (32:55): Oh, yeah. So all this leads to 2016 change. Yep. It took them eleven years to get on it, but they did. It's government, man.

Mike (33:04): Yeah, so they changed it to subjective pilot reporting reports of good, fair, and poor nil. They change it into they get rid of the student's numerical surface friction readings as mu values. They get rid of those, and they put in this new RCAM system, which is has a chart for you. So it is the what the heck is it? It's a runway conditions assistant assessment matrix.

Mike (33:32): So you get an assessment matrix. And there's a chart, and it'll give you a number. So if the runway is dry, it gives you a six. So if you see six, then you know and they'll put it in the ATIS when you pull up the terminal information. It says 6.

Mike (33:44): Okay? Actually, they won't even put it if it says that, but if there's a different factor on the runway, like, say the rest of it's wet, it might say, like, six five five or something like that. Now I've been into the people that say, hey, if I went out and got a big slushie at 07:11, went out on the runway and dumped it on the first third of the runway in the middle of July, would that mean that there's ice and slush? So it'd be a one or a two on the first run part of the runway? Who's I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (34:14): Asking you that question?

Mike (34:16): It's getting weird. It got it gets weird when that happens. But you can kinda take that number and then look at this chart and say, okay, I see what's going on. There's a there could be a five. It could be frost or it could be wet.

Mike (34:29): And then it gives you a deceleration directional control observation. So the braking deceleration is normal for the wheel and braking effort applied, directional control is normal. That'd be for like a five. Pilot braking action, good. So it kinda incorporates all these things into one kind of big chart, and it takes a lot of the guessing game out of it.

Mike (34:47): So if you're like, what was that three again? Well, hey, let's look that up and and we'll take a look at it. Now, if you're just a regular guy, then you can say, well, you can put that stuff into your your landing performance stuff too because it's gonna computer does all that

Tom (34:59): for us. But if the computer was broken or deferred or something or the program went down, you're still going. So you got to figure out how to look it up, right? So yeah, so you always have it as a backup, the chart and everything.

Mike (35:14): So this leads us into this other thing. So last week, the NTSB reported or recommended to the FAA revised its runway condition assessment matrix, RCAM, to better account for braking performance during periods of heavy rainfall. Now this would factor into the the flight, the Toronto flight that we're gonna talk about next week that you guys will hear. But there were 11 overrun accidents between 2008 and '22 involving landings on wet runways, and the current RCAM does not account for progressive loss of wheel baking braking friction associated with increasing rainfall intensities, which can affect landing distance calculations. Now there was a Miami well, no.

Mike (35:54): This was a p three that took was actually overrun at Jacksonville Naval Air Air Station. It was a p eight landing there, and I've landed in in Navy Jax, and literally, there's just downpours from, like, the Florida thunderstorms. And, like, it's pouring on the first third of the runway, and, like, you're not IMC until you touch the ground on the runway and then you can't see anything. And Yeah. I'm I was a new student.

Mike (36:20): I had, like, a hundred and thirty hours and I'm flying a p three Orion and the instructor's just like, what's your problem? And I'm like, I can't see anything. That's kind of a problem. Okay. Whatever, dude.

Mike (36:32): Like, that's what I would get. But again, that's that's another story. But well, yeah. So this p eight lands at Navy Jacks and there was heavy rain, like crazy rainfall, torrential rainfall, you know, at the end of the runway and they couldn't stop. And they went off the end of the runway and they almost went into they went into the river.

Mike (36:53): They were in the shallow river part of the water in the Saint Johns River. It's a p eight seven thirty seven to destroy I say it's destroyed. They probably pulled it out and drain, you know, fix it up. I don't know. But that's a huge problem.

Mike (37:08): So this is coming up again, and I don't know. This is 2026, Mike. Maybe we'll see a change in at your retirement ceremony. They'll come out with a new matrix, and we'll we'll have to do a show on that. We'll cap call captain Steve and say, hey, captain Steve.

Mike (37:22): We're retired like you now. Maybe you can give us some of your listeners and we'll take them. But anyway, so this has come up again and that's why I kinda wanted to bring it up and I think there's some other stuff in there that we we could talk to Ian about in there too, which which would be good too. But, anyways, that that just kinda popped in there. A couple more things that popped up in the news, Mike.

Mike (37:42): I don't if you saw this. The MD 11 saga just keeps going on and on and on, and and I'm not a part of it. I'm I kind of enjoy, you know, watching it from the bullpen. And honestly, my company keeps putting out more like yay raw stuff about how we're bringing back two Jets this month and five next month, and there's gonna be more and more. Now, this is the first time that I've seen the NTSB directly talk about this, and this clears up a lot of stuff.

Mike (38:06): Because if you remember when the initial accident happened, everyone's like, well, FedEx, you know, FedEx did some fixes on these planes and UPS didn't do them and everything. So this kinda cleared up some of that mystery because it was 2007 that FedEx found a jet that had actually, it was before that, in 2002, there was another operator that was not named not named. They found a jet where the actual bearing had failed, and the secondary lug had held the engine on the airplane.

Tom (38:38): 2002, could that have been a passenger plane? Could have been.

Mike (38:43): So somebody found it, and they told him about it, and Boeing was like, okay, well the aft lug should hold it. That's where that comes from. The aft lug should hold the thing on the plane. That obviously didn't happen to the UPS aircraft. Now in 2007, FedEx found a jet where the lug had shifted.

Mike (39:02): So the or the bearing had started to fail. They saw the failure and they measured it with whatever one of their micrometers. It was like point zero three inches or something. So you're talking about like very minimal thing, but the bearing was failing. And FedEx found it.

Mike (39:15): And they told Boeing and they're like, what do we do about this? And Boeing was like, you should probably replace this lug assembly. So they gave him an actual fix. So FedEx was like, you know what? We're gonna do that.

Mike (39:27): So FedEx was inspecting all of their bearings through all their cycles, and then they were replacing these lugs as they went. That's from 2007, so that's a long time for to be inspecting this. Far as I know, UPS didn't do that. Although anytime this comes up, they're not talking about what UPS did. FedEx

Tom (39:43): found, FedEx found was that communicated to UPS?

Mike (39:46): Yes, this stuff was all out there because they told Boeing like this is what we're gonna do and Boeing was like yeah you should you should do that fix if you want to. So no one came out and said you had to do it. Gotcha. They said this is recommended. So the

Unknown Speaker (40:00): that's operators kind were aware of it.

Mike (40:02): Yeah. And obviously the the UPS accident that, you know, the secondary lug did not hold that engine on the aircraft and it departed.

Tom (40:11): Someone's actually trying to sue the pilot from UPS, like the family or whatever. How does that even work?

Mike (40:17): I don't even know. I mean You those

Tom (40:19): were switched into that airplane like just two hours before? They they were originally assigned to another airplane.

Unknown Speaker (40:26): Yeah. I saw that too. It's like

Tom (40:30): Final Destination stuff, you know?

Unknown Speaker (40:32): I guess though, but if you think that, you can have it

Unknown Speaker (40:34): time. Right?

Mike (40:35): Yeah. What if the airplane I was in was the one that was gonna kill me and God put his hand down and put me in the other one, you know, like, don't know. Out of this stuff.

Tom (40:42): Your time, it's your time, but yeah, man. Wow.

Mike (40:45): Yeah. That stuff's wild. So that's the NTSB update from the MD 11 stuff. Again, my company's gonna fly them, so that's that. This is interesting.

Mike (40:54): I really wanna talk to Ian about this, and we're gonna talk to him about this again. But this is the NTSB what?

Unknown Speaker (41:00): I said dag

Mike (41:00): Dag helmet. The NTSB is asking the FAA to require mandatory ADS B in. Now the ADS B in is the same as ADS B out, it's just in the airplane. So now we can see each other the same way that air traffic control sees us. Like, I could see your exact position and your altitude and things like that.

Mike (41:27): If you look at I think your name is Jennifer Hamanday. Does that sound right?

Unknown Speaker (41:31): Yeah. That's the n t yeah.

Mike (41:33): She's in charge of NTSB. Whenever she talks to the FAA, the FAA kinda like pushes it aside to Congress because they don't wanna just start mandating things. And a lot of stuff comes down to money. So the FAA just comes down and says, hey, all airlines be now hear this. Hear ye, hear ye.

Mike (41:48): Install ADS B in. And well, that costs a lot of money, so it's more of a process than just the NTSP saying this is have it on some

Tom (41:57): of our airplanes, but like the newer ones, know, not any of you know.

Mike (42:01): And that's a great point, Mike, because a lot of the newer aircrafts come with a software on board that it's just magic, you know, you just upload a program and it can do it. But a lot of the older airplanes can't do that, so it gets weird. Now what I forget. What does ADS B stand for? It's automatic directional system or something?

Unknown Speaker (42:22): I forgot. Let me look it up.

Unknown Speaker (42:24): I can ask that you keep talking. So

Mike (42:27): all it does is it just talks it's everything talking to each other, and it shows you where everyone is. Now they just updated it so you can get it. In my company, we don't have Wi Fi in the jet, but you can see when you're on the ground, like, you put the ADS B on, you can see where everybody else is at taxing because it's the same as you go on, like, FlightAware, whatever it is, flight flight 20 Flight Radar 24, like that's essentially ADS it's ADS B out. It's the airplane's reporting to you. Automatic Dependent

Tom (42:57): Surveillance Broadcast. There you go. I wouldn't have guessed that.

Mike (43:01): So it's in, so you're getting the information into your airplane from what everyone else is doing, and that's the same way as if you're looking on those apps or whatever and seeing who's flying over your house or you know what C-one 130 just buzzed you on a low level, like that's that's what you're looking at. It's the same thing. But so there's different levels of the how that can be built into the newer equipment, you know, like we're saying it comes out from the factory, but there's some fix that the NTSB is talking about that could be as low as $50,000, but there's some, like, update that you can do to the airplane. So the cost is relatively low, and I don't know specifically what it said. The the article wasn't really talking about all that, but it's a situational awareness tool that could just be, like, completely open game changer as far as like who you see that's out there.

Mike (43:47): And the biggest thing that it plays into was the accident in the Potomac that we saw, you know, about a year ago, which is like, if they saw that helicopter, maybe the helicopter saw that saw the the American Eagle flight, they would have been different. Or there's so many more things that come into it that you could be like, wow, it's a game changer situationally awareness wise. Knowing who's out there and

Unknown Speaker (44:11): But then really they question, you know how it is, who's gonna pay for it?

Mike (44:15): Yeah. $50,000 to me doesn't sound like a lot, especially in the airline game when they're they're losing $50,000 a day, an hour, who knows? Who knows what's going on with those with these companies, but

Tom (44:27): They talk about how razor thin their margins are, you know.

Mike (44:30): Yeah, so I think this is something to keep an eye on, and I want to give a shout out to Craig, my buddy Craig, he hit us on the text line with that, so hey, if you got a topic that you want to talk about, us on the text line. I give it out earlier. I'll give it out again. (203) 699-6792. Go ahead and hit that number.

Mike (44:45): 6 it's (203) 699-6792. We'll hit all the plugs at the bottom too. But again, thanks Craig for for shouting that out, and I think that's a big relevant thing, I thought it was gonna be a good topic. And we'll bring it up on Ian when we talk to him again to see what he thinks how that could provide help for him as far as a control. I'm sure they would

Unknown Speaker (45:02): love it just because it gives him a little bit of a backup. Like, I love having backup. Doesn't mean it's gonna do its job. It just means you got another set of eyes helping you out. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (45:11): So

Mike (45:13): Stories from the road. I just jump seeded back home last week to Southwest. It was no big deal. I came back on Delta. Southwest was pretty good jump seating now with the assigned seating because there were, like, 40 open seats, and the gate agent just gave me a seat just handed me the thing right there, which is so much better than when you're there like, just go find an open seat.

Mike (45:37): And you'd be like, oh my god, like and then everyone in the back are like switching seats and you don't you know if you just sat, you know, sat in between the family feud, like, I don't know. Just give me the number of the seat. I'll I'll sit down where it says

Unknown Speaker (45:48): Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (45:48): And we're good to go.

Unknown Speaker (45:50): I think the better story on

Unknown Speaker (45:51): the road for you is what about your little scare at your crash pad? It's with the guy when the guy was here in the nighttime.

Unknown Speaker (45:57): Yeah. Was there another one that I don't know about?

Mike (46:01): No. There was another guy that came too, but he he was more announced, I think. But he kept showing back up. He'd say goodbye to me. He'd be like, come out of here, man.

Mike (46:08): And then next thing you know, he's back sleeping on the couch, and I'm like, where did he why is he not gone? I don't know. It's and that's the thing with crash pad people too is like, don't try to figure out their lives. Just expect someone to be here all the time. So I'm I'm in this house by myself.

Mike (46:21): It's a four bedroom house. Like, it's a big house, and I mean, I don't know what's going on here. So I go to bed and I I think I went to bed at, eleven or something, and I'm like, no one's coming. Right? And I was sleeping.

Mike (46:33): It was, like, 01:00 and I heard, like, footsteps and, like, a thump, and I was, And then I saw, like, a light turn on and a shadow. The only defense I have here, Mike, is to run out the front door. That's all I have. I don't I'm not trained in martial arts. I don't have weapons here.

Mike (46:49): No. I'm I'm out, baby. It's it's it's fright and flight, baby. That's it. Double whammy.

Unknown Speaker (46:54): Out the door. You know, usually in

Tom (46:55): crash pads, they're busy enough that you it kind of if if you saw that, you wouldn't think anything of it, but it's been a ghost town there for you. So

Mike (47:02): Yeah. There's no one here. All these guys are triple guys, and their schedules are on the thing. And so I don't there's a I don't think anybody's supposed to be here till I leave again. I'm a leave this weekend again.

Unknown Speaker (47:12): So I don't know. But, anyways, the guy I saw

Tom (47:15): If Mississippi was closer to Florida, I'd show up in a clown suit.

Mike (47:19): Oh, I'd be gone. I'd I'd I'd drop on request from training. I'd go try to get a job somewhere else closer to home. No more crash pads. Yeah.

Mike (47:31): So that's that. Like, you had a good story. Speaking of ghosts and ghostly spooky things, that was an eerie picture that you sent.

Tom (47:38): I just got back. I just got back from Puerto Rico and one of our we have multiple crew hotels down there. It's do multiple airlines. There's airlines all over San Juan and stuff. But we stayed at the Candado, the Candado.

Tom (47:52): And back in the seventies, the Walindas, the circus type rope walking family, The grandfather was doing an act and I guess some gusty winds caught him and he fell between the two buildings of this hotel plaza. And he fell to the pavement and then that's where he died. And there's videos of it. And I didn't know that's where we were staying, but there's like a plaque on the wall. It's like, this is where he went out and I'm like, this is kinda creepy.

Tom (48:19): You know, I can see it from the balcony in my hotel room like that's X marks the spot, you know, like

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Mike (48:55): What's more creepy is there's that that, like, walkway that goes across the between the two hotels, which is like pretty much like ghostly showing his tightrope area. I don't know. That's creepy.

Unknown Speaker (49:11): Yeah. Yeah. But that's what we'll talk about. We'll have to do we, you know, mentioned it for the Halloween episode last year. We we should do like haunted hotels or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (49:18): We'll we'll we'll we'll throw in some ghost story hotel things. And Yeah. That one's this year. He doesn't haunt the place. Know, I haven't heard that story.

Tom (49:28): But that's where he died, you know, right there in between the two hotels.

Mike (49:32): Never heard the story that he was like, his ghost is seen there either. But I've

Tom (49:36): seen And like the grandson, I think he's still I don't know if he's still active, but he's done some stuff recently. Like I think he just walked across the Grand Canyon a few years ago and he walked one of the wheels. Don't know if it was like the Ferris wheel in Vegas or the Ferris wheel in Orlando or maybe it was the London Eye. I don't remember but he like walked across it or something. So they're still active.

Tom (49:56): It's like a family of type rope walkers. So they've been around for a long time.

Unknown Speaker (50:01): The walking is Not all like Derek does Derek Jeter have any kids?

Tom (50:07): I don't think so, but I'm not I don't quote me. I'm not I wouldn't bet on it.

Mike (50:12): Don't think there's any guarantee that Aaron Judge does, but there's no guarantee that his kid's gonna be an MLB star.

Unknown Speaker (50:19): Yeah. So they're like three, four generations deep of tightrope walkers.

Mike (50:22): Yeah, I think it's it's a rarity that you see such continuity in professional

Unknown Speaker (50:29): But that video man, and I sent it to you, it's kind of creepy because you see him and you can see like he knows he's going, you know what I mean? Like you ever have a moment where you're like about to fall and you're like, oh the heck with it and you just you just fall like you hopefully it's into a couch or something?

Mike (50:42): Yeah, was gonna say usually like I'm on the diving board and I've like, yeah, tried to set up for a cannonball incorrectly. I just can't imagine he was

Unknown Speaker (50:48): doing that from a 100 feet above a street, know, I mean like,

Mike (50:51): I think there was something to it too, like, didn't wanna do it but they were like, kinda like, come on, just do it. Because they had like all the TV

Unknown Speaker (50:57): stations there and everything else. I think it like a big deal.

Mike (51:00): Yeah. And I don't think he wanted to do it. Yeah. Was windy. Bad.

Unknown Speaker (51:04): Yeah. That's not good. And it's not even it's even worse that you just sit you sent me that picture. Was like, even though I got chills, I knew what it was.

Unknown Speaker (51:11): Yeah. I'm like, this is weird.

Unknown Speaker (51:13): Yeah. That's that's a good one. Yeah. I I like it, Mike. I like that's a good setup for our Halloween episode.

Unknown Speaker (51:19): Six months from Four months from now. We're in line of some guests from that. Somebody was telling me that do you ever Daniel Tosh? Dan Tosh has a I guess Dan Tosh is that his name? Or Tosh?

Unknown Speaker (51:29): Dude, should

Unknown Speaker (51:29): we dress up for a Halloween show? Like, costumes? Yeah. I know Daniel I mean, I don't know Daniel Tosh, but he's from Orlando. He went to UCF.

Mike (51:36): Yeah. There's I think he opens his show with like, do you believe in ghosts? That's like the first thing he asks somebody. If they say yes, he's like, oh, forget it. This is over.

Unknown Speaker (51:44): Like, that's the end of it. But we'll have to line up some guests for the show. Maybe we can find we're gonna get a psychic. Wouldn't that be fun to have a psychic at the show? I don't know any psychic.

Unknown Speaker (51:53): Guess I have to get someone to pretend to be.

Mike (51:56): Look at the lighting in the back of my studio. It's gone out. We can't even see Wilson anymore. It's getting late. I didn't turn on the rest of the the lights in my new studio.

Unknown Speaker (52:04): Crash pad life.

Mike (52:06): Yeah. I I texted Jay and I I was like, oh, just he's like, where are you? Said, I just got home. He's like, you went home to Connecticut? I was like, I guess I'm at home, like crash pad.

Mike (52:14): He's like, that's not your home. I'm like, you're

Unknown Speaker (52:15): right. Feels like home.

Unknown Speaker (52:17): It's not my home. Nicole, I'm sorry. This is not my home. I it's not.

Unknown Speaker (52:22): You can go snuggle with Wilson.

Mike (52:24): Wilson. That's how we should close every show now when I'm here. Alright, Mike. Let's put a put a wrap in this one, and I will see you again on another episode of the Black Box Aviation.

Unknown Speaker (52:35): Good luck in training. Bye bye.

Unknown Speaker (52:37): Simon, thanks.

Unknown Speaker (52:37): You've been listening to the Black Box Aviation Podcast. Real pilots, real stories, and aviation news the way it's actually talked about in the cockpit. If you like what you heard, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow so you don't miss an episode. Until next time, keep the blue sign up and we'll see you at altitude.